Friday, February 01, 2008
-
Gay or Gossip?
I have a thought question for you---which do you think is the worse sin: being homosexual or being a gossip?
If you're from a fundamentalist or very conservative church you probably know that gossips roam freely unchecked or even encouraged but gays are allowed nowhere near. If you're in a more liberal church, you're going to notice that people have a greater sense of the impropriety of gossiping and a greater sense of delicacy toward peoples' personal struggles. (Ok, I guess my opinion is showing through here
) To tell the truth, I've never been in one of those very liberal churches where being gay is almost a badge of honor, so I have no visceral reaction to such an idea. I think everyone here on this site agrees that's just too extreme, so let's not bother reacting to it here. I saw some really ugly, false gossip today on a forum where people were supposed to be hashing out ideas about how to deal with a very serious problem in the Episcopal Church. Everyone there was a conservative and the disagreement was about how we conservatives should respond to the liberalization of the national leadership of the church (gay bishop and all that.) The more militant folks quickly descended into personal attacks and gossip against folks who merely disagreed with them about tactics, while what I think are the more thoughtful conservatives tried to keep the discussion focussed on ideas and solutions. Keep in mind that we weren't debating charged issues like homosexuality, we were just debating our practical response to the national church, and very soon the militants were hitting below the belt.
Have we become a little insane? Has our crusade to return to 'family values' become an obesssion with gays, divorce and unmarried sex and made us become blind to our own sins? Have we gone a little crazy?
-
recommend
- recs 0
- give stars
- votes 0
-
email
- sent 0
Post a Comment
- Back to MrsDarcy_MrsDarcy_MrsDarcy's Xanga Site!
- Note: your comment will appear in MrsDarcy_MrsDarcy_MrsDarcy's local time zone: GMT -05:00 (Eastern Standard - US, Canada)
Comments (29)
According to scripture gossip damages people, churchs, lives, children, friendships, and our witness. It raises discord, it is a sin and it is a abomination to sow discord, God hates it! I would never justify being homosexual, but I believe gossip is more damaging to others! Satan wants us obsessed with one subject so we fall into another, distroying Gods name in anyway possible.
I believe the consequence of all sin is the same. Death. God does not see them as one being worse than another. That being said, I know from experience how damaging gossip can be to a church body and especially to an individual. Homosexuality is damaging as well but it has not touched my life in the same way as gossip.
@Over_my_coffee_cup - I think you hit the nail on the head--it sows discord. Anything that brings strife among us and makes us turn on each other is a victory for Satan and should be scrupulously avoided.
@Nanny_Kate_1 - that is so true! It really damages a congregation when people gossip. And it's so very hard to avoid. I mean, somebody leans in and says, "Did you hear about....." Wow, how do you pull back and say, "No, and I don't want to!"
This would be a great question on TheWorshipCafe. Mind if I steal it?
(Trying not to think about the irony there...)
"which do you think is the worse sin" is in itself a flawed premise. Actually the question has many other conitations, but the most obvious is "whom will the church most readily accept and show their grace to?", not which is the "worst sin".
It denotes a reliance upon ourselves, instead of changing the entire premise to whom we are in Christ. The question actually becomes so loaded that it is transparent. The homosexual will lose the sin argument in a church setting, unless the majority of the congregation is homosexual. It is a numbers game and has nothing to do with sin, but power and standing, and a desire to be seen in a better light than another.
Until we understand that our greatest error is trying to make ourselves right and acceptable before God, instead of submitting to Him, and allow Him to be reflected in our lives as we submit more and more, we will always be trying to compete for the most righteous position in the church.
"...a desire to be seen in a better light than another."
I think John sums up perfectly what you are trying to get at Mrs. D. Some people still think we're in some sort of line and God is grading us or giving us little crowns for doing well. There might be some truth to that, but not the way they present it.
That's funny, I have a note to myself to blog sometime on this very thing. I have written extensively on it privately, but never publicly I don't think. I think the Bible says that sin is sin is sin. ANY way that we fall short of the mark is an abomination in God's eyes, and He doesn't differentiate. Being fearful ranks right up there in the same list as murder and sexual immoratily in the list in Revelation 21:8. They're all sin.
In Romans 1, where homosexuality is pretty thoroughly hammered on, the end of the chapter lists a bunch of things that God says people "deserve to die" for, and right in that list is slander, gossip, and even foolishness.
I think it's amazing that Christians can't see that one sin is just as bad as another--there are not rankings of sin, with some being Class A sins and others being Class B or C. They're all just sin in God's eyes and worthy of death.
I am just as guilty as any adulterer, homosexual, murderer, etc. because I have lied, I have gossiped, I have been disobedient to my parents. Anyone who tries to make a difference between sins is not being honest with themselves or with God.
I know all sins are equally damaging to ones soul, but personally I prefer to be with a homosexual who chooses not to gossip than a hetero who delights in it. (Unfortunately the only homosexual I know is a bit of a gossip...)
@Pass_the_Aura - Please feel free! That's a great site. I wouldn't object if you linked back here, too.
@uprisingyouth - John, that was well-said. I understand very well the change in perspective you're trying to encourage. Since leaving legalism, my journey to try to get out of rules-keeping mode and into the mode of receiving the good God gives (instead of trying to conjure good out of myself) has been fascinating. The funny thing is that I know you can't explain this to someone who's still stuck in legalism. It just sounds like 'waa, waa, waaa, waaa, waa' if you haven't started to break out yet. It sounds like mushy 'spiritual' talk. I remember well! I'd ask myself "Where's the doctrine there? I'm suspicious. I don't know where this is going. It could lead anywhere!" I wanted the rules to be well explained and laid out.
But I'm not sure you're right about the numbers game entirely. Look at the responses here on this question---pretty good odds, I'd say! What I think is, there are more people of goodwill than we may know. You just have to find them.
@Roland_Drake - Yep. That's a good picture--lining up for rewards. If we all remembered that 'he who would be first should be last', that would stop. (But we don't, of course!)
@homefire - Thank you, Homefire, for this. I am still actually not settled on this point yet, which is why I wrote this entry. I have noticed (and maybe I am prejudiced toward noticing) that Christ was most harsh toward those who tried to get in the way of people coming to God, like the Pharisees, or like those who would keep the little children away from Him. Sin is sin and all separates us from God, yes, true, but perhaps on a human scale there are differences. Practically speaking, you know, little white lies hurt people far less than murder. That's why I'm asking. This isn't easy!
@iamherenow123 - That's wonderful! I think you are motivated by love, I really do.
Perhaps on a human scale there ARE differences. Granted, murder seems to harm more people than fearfulness, generally. However, we are talking about which is more sinful, right? Not which has the most far-reaching effects in man's eyes. The Bible tells us that ALL sin is worthy of death. Who are we to decide which sins are more far-reaching? Only God can see how it affects mankind ultimately. We see only the tip of the iceberg as to who a sin hurts/helps/changes in some way.
Even murder may actually be used for God to work good things--God is amazing in the ways that He can use the most base, vile things for His glory. Often we can't see the good until much later, and possibly we never will, but we don't understand God's ways, and we simply cannot say that nothing good comes out of those things.
Anyway, my point is that the way sin affects humans is not really the issue here. The real measure of sin is that it is an offense against GOD Almighty. And in that, one failure is just as bad as another.
@homefire - I understand the value of doing this kind of thought experiment, and understanding the way in which even a small sin separates us from God, just as a large one does. But I cannot agree that 'the way sin affects humans is not really the issue.' I think the way we affect each other is very much the issue! We're to love God and our neighbors. This is the Great Commandment. We are judged by our love for one another. We were put on this earth to support and love and help each other. To gloss this over makes us cold toward each other, like the Pharisees who "...have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness... " What are justice and mercy about if not our fellow man?
I can't say this strongly enough.
Aaaand it's up here.
My answer: Isn't it obvious? The worse sin is the one that other people are dealing with, whereas my sin is just a part of my personality!
A bit more seriously, though, I wonder this doesn't somehow reflect what Screwtape revealed as part of the diabolical strategy: Get people to react against whatever vices are the opposite to the ones you want to infect them with. If you want people to become legalistic, convince them that tolerance is evil, and vice versa.
I think a gossip who is trying to control her tongue and a homosexual who is trying to control his sexual feelings are in about the same place, spiritually speaking.
R. A. Torrey once (well, more than once) brought up an interesting point: If the "greatest commandment" according to Jesus is to love God and love your neighbor, doesn't it follow that the greatest sin is to break that commandment?
@MrsDarcy_MrsDarcy_MrsDarcy - I didn't say that how sin affects other people isn't important--just that it's not the issue you asked about. Of course it's important, and another thing we will answer for (e.g. causing a brother to stumble.) My point is simply that one sin is no worse than another sin in God's eyes. They are all abomination, and there is no softening of the punishment for seemingly "minor" sins.
Some great points from Pass the Aura--I love Screwtape Letters!
Mrs. D. "The worse sin is the one that other people are dealing with, whereas my sin is just a part of my personality! "
I was using an educated guess that chances are that in a church ( especially in our region) odds are there would be more gossips per capita than homosexuals. I doubt peoples ability to honestly judge themselves in a public setting. Many times what people say publically is not how they really feel either, ESPECIALLY in CHURCH
i agree with quite a few of the psots above.......both are heinous in the sight of God.
but i will say, i've been destroyed by gossipers...but never been hurt by someone who's gay. in fact, i worked with a gay guy for about a year, and unfortuantely, got along with him a whole heck of a lot better than the people who CLAIMED to be chstiains...sigh. (he knew that i disagreed with his lifestyle. but also knew i accepted him where he was, too.)
@uprisingyouth - WE..... often hammer Romans 1 (myself included) and forget largely about Romans 12.
Living our lives as living sacrifices -THIS being our spiritual act of worship.
Not thinking of ourselves more highly than we ought but thinking of ourselves in sober judgment.
And then all those instructions about love.... I think one of the best passages of love written in the NT as it so practical and reflective
.
both are evil. it says somewhere in the New Testament (possibly Romans, or in the Gospels but wouldn't swear to it) that neither the homosexuals, gossipers and slanders will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
@sarahsD - While I am not sure I understand your comment (as it relates to mine) your comments are valid ones.
I would say Romans 3:10; 3:23 ARE GOOD LEAD INS to Romans 6: 5-11 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Of course, Romans 7 follows with the tension of the natures with the crescendo of victory, explaning who we are in Christ in Romans 8. Mrs. D's post but she basically identified my main thrust is that it is not about a legalistic who scored best on the test, but the transformation that occurs when we yield ourselves to Christ and accept what He has done and accept and claim as our own His righteousness.
I have a decent study on who we are in Christ if you are interested. Have a good weekend. John
@ehrinn_l - I'd say that seems to be the consensus here--gossips have hurt most of us more than gays have.
@uprisingyouth - you made a comment about people not judging themselves.... it set my mind rolling on to Romans 12...... I know sorry a bit of a rabbit trail.
They are both equally wrong.
In my experience, both the homosexuals and the gossips I've known are very emotionally needy people who crave acceptance, and view their particular sin as the easiest way to get it.
I've also seen damage inflicted by both. Probably the gossips caused more spectacular damage in the long run (splitting a fairly sizable church right down the middle), but I knew a gay man who started sexually harrassing a teenage girl when he found out she was an evangelical Christian. Her parents were not pleased.
So I think the answer is that both are destructive, but gossip is a weapon of mass destruction.