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The Socratic Club
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Original: 10/6/2006 12:08 AM
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Friday, October 06, 2006

 

In Defense of the Cosmological Argument for the Existence of God

 

This fairly simple argument used by philosophers, theologians, and scientists, from Plato to Aquinas to William Lane Craig appears as follows in the form of a syllogism (according to that falicious site):

 

1.      For every effect there is a cause.

2.      Nothing can cause itself.

3.      A casual chain cannot go on infinitely.

=>Therefore, there must be a first cause.

 

            This would be the point where I’d explain the argument in my own words, but why do that when a greater man has already done it?

 

Curiostity, or love of the knowledge of causes, draws a man from the consideration of the effect, to seek the cause; and again, the cause of that cause; till of necessity he must come to this thought at last, that there is some cause, whereof there is no former cause, but is eternal; which is it men call God.  So that it impossible to make any profound inquiry into natural causes, without being inclined thereby to believe there is one God eternal;…

For he that from any effect he seeth come to pass, should reason to the next and immediate cause thereof, and from thence to the cause of that cause, and plunge himself profoundly in the pursuit of causes; shall at last come to this, that there must be (as even the heathen philosophers confessed) one first mover; that is, a first, and an eternal cause of all things, which men mean by the name of God:…

~Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, I.XI.25 and I.XII.6.

 

 

This first-cause argument has been apparent to even the “heathen philosophers” such as Plato and Aristotle and no doubt countless others, yet most atheists dismiss the argument as trite and without any serious weight.  There are in my knowledge, three main atheist objections to the argument, each of which I will attempt to refute:

 

1. The Big Bang theory satifies the cosmological argument, replacing God with the Big Bang as the first cause.

 

            The obvious reply to this is, what caused the Big Bang?  The theory of the Big Bang, advocated by William Lane Craig (Scientists invent these awesome ideas and come up with a lame name like “The Big Bang.”  I agree with Calvin.  They should rename it the Horrendous Space Kablooie.), can not be a first cause because even it demands another cause, being subject to the laws of the tangible world, in which for every effect there is a cause.  The cause of the Big Bang would have to be God. 

 

2. A chain of causes can go on infinitely, and thus, there is not need of a first-cause.

 

            Imagine a chain of causes infinitely receding into the past with no beginning and infinitely progressing into the future with no end.  Don’t just state the idea to yourself; Instead, tediously imagine cause after cause after cause after cause extending eternally in both directions of time.  You cannot.  The human mind cannot compredend such an idea.  The reason that man lacks the ability to comprehend infinite time (In this case I am not refering to infinity as outside time, but as time that has no beginning or end) is that either that, (a) men cannot comprehend the laws of their own habitat, or (b) infinite time cannot exist in the physical universe because it runs against its laws.

            It is an impossibility for (a) to be true when everthing in the physical world has a beginning and end.  Yet, though the previous sentence seems an obvious aphorism to me, the atheist will not be so easily convinced.  Simply, the reason that I believe infinite time in this world is impossible is because I have not witnessed anything infinite and I cannot comprehend infinity.  The idea that anything in this universe, such as time and matter, has no beginning or end runs against reason.  Every thing in the world has a clear undeniable starting and finishing point.  But even if infinite time were a possibility, how is it that men cannot comprehend their own evironment?  If infinite time were a characteristic of the universe that produced men, why would they not understand it?  Even the beasts of the earth can understand the basic natural laws of their habitation, such as the law of gravity.  The elephant understands that if it walks off a precipice it will fall and die.  The spider understands that if it falls into the river, it will be swept away by the waters and drown.  Animals can understand the natural laws of their habitat. Why is it men can’t understand theirs?  As C.S. Lewis once asked, If you are really a product of a materialistic universe, how is it you don't feel at home there?    

            The remaining and correct choice is (b), that infinite time cannot exist in the physical universe.  Since that is the case, a first cause is necessary, and God, the first-cause, must exist.

 

3. The universe may require a first cause, but God requires a cause as well.

 

This objection is perfectly embodied by the words of Bertrand Russell in his lecture, Why I am not a Christian:

 

I may say that when I was a young man and was debating these questions very seriously in my mind, I for a long time accepted the argument of the First Cause, until one day, at the age of eighteen, I read John Stuart Mill's Autobiography, and I there found this sentence: "My father taught me that the question 'Who made me?' cannot be answered, since it immediately suggests the further question `Who made god?'" That very simple sentence showed me, as I still think, the fallacy in the argument of the First Cause. If everything must have a cause, then God must have a cause. If there can be anything without a cause, it may just as well be the world as God, so that there cannot be any validity in that argument. It is exactly of the same nature as the Hindu's view, that the world rested upon an elephant and the elephant rested upon a tortoise; and when they said, "How about the tortoise?" the Indian said, "Suppose we change the subject." The argument is really no better than that.

 

Originally, I thought that this specious objection was just, and it is just when we anthropomorphize God.  If God is tangible, and/or bound to the natural laws of this universe, which state that for every cause there is an effect, then God, being an effect, does require a cause.  But the fallacy of this objection is that God is not an effect, as men are.  God is the ultimate eternal ideal of everything good and requires no cause, because He is the ultimate cause.  There is nothing before him because He is.  I am that I am.  

On top of this, God neither exists in physical form, nor is not subject to the natural laws of the universe because he created them.  If we assume God requires a cause, we must also assume he feels the force of gravity, both being laws of nature.  That notion is absurd; likewise the notion that God requires a cause is an absurdity. 

 

Make sense?

 

 

 

 

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 Posted 10/6/2006 12:08 AM - 10 views - 24 comments

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I've also heard it stated that every that has a beginning, must have a cause. Since God has no beginning, He doesn't need a cause.

larry
Posted 10/6/2006 1:10 AM by LSP1 - reply

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The falacy is that you see time as linear.
Imagine it as the intersection of a plane that travels through a sphere.

On first contact it is a single dot.
The beginning of time.
There it has no past and no future.
Causality in a present that lasts indefinitely.
At it's conclusion it is once again a single dot called infinity.
The reality of eternity.
Beyond the sphere it's components are mathematically imaginary.

Your 3 premisses are wrong.
Posted 10/6/2006 4:01 AM by mykid2 - reply

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On first contact it is a single dot.
The beginning of time.
There it has no past and no future.
Causality in a present that lasts indefinitely.
At it's conclusion it is once again a single dot called infinity.
The reality of eternity.
Beyond the sphere it's components are mathematically imaginary.

I don't see what difference that makes.  What caused time?

Posted 10/6/2006 9:58 AM by TheSocraticClub - reply

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"God is not an effect, as men are.  God is the ultimate eternal ideal of everything good and requires no cause, because He is the ultimate cause.  There is nothing before him because He is.  I am that I am."

What?!?!?!?!?!  How did you obtain that information? 

"God neither exists in physical form, nor is not subject to the natural laws of the universe because he created them."

How convenient.  With that line of thinking, there appears to be no way of proving the existence of God to be false, which means there would also be no way of proving the existence of God to be true.

On a side note, it is not the universe's fault that you or anyone else struggle with the concepts that comprise it.  Your inability to comprehend something doesn't make it false or nonexistent.

Posted 10/7/2006 12:28 AM by filow84 Xanga Premium Member - reply

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Time...Trinity...God...human mind...ouch! 

Posted 10/8/2006 6:31 PM by harvesterreaps - reply

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Michael,

Thank you for the argument wtih counter objections and your counters. I enjoy reading you blog. I do have a counter argument to the cosmological argument you have not yet addressed. It's taken from George Smith's Atheism: The Case Against God. Basically, if premise (2) of your argument is true - Nothing can cause itself - then, your conclusion - therefore there must be a first cause - must be false. If nothing can cause itself, there can be no first cause because this would be a cause that caused itself. I agree with Mr. Smith on this one: the Cosmological Argument, at least the way you stated it, is invalid because its conclusion not only does not follow - but cannot follow - from its premises.

What do you think?
-Sean
Posted 10/8/2006 10:17 PM by therealSNEEZY - reply

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So it's completely unrealistic to assume an infinite universe or multiverse, but completely reasonable to assume an infinite, supernatural, all powerful deity?
Posted 10/9/2006 12:32 PM by evolutionexplained - reply

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therealSNEEZY:

[if premise (2) of your argument is true - Nothing can cause itself - then, your conclusion - therefore there must be a first cause - must be false. If nothing can cause itself, there can be no first cause because this would be a cause that caused itself]

Agreed. But you are assuming that the first cause was also an effect. It could be the case that the first cause is simply a being of a necessary existence (as opposed to a being of contingent existence). Allow me to clarify. In nature there are things whose existence are contingent, that is, it is possible for them to exist or not to exist. Since it is possible for such things not to exist, there must be some time at which such things did not in fact exist. By contrast a necessary thing by definition, has always existed and can never cease to exist. Contingent beings are insufficient to account for the existence of the universe, meaning there must exist a Necessary Being for which it is impossible not to exist, and from which the existence of all contingent beings is derived. We can summarize the argument from contingency as follows:

Premise #1: If everything began to exist, then there was a time when nothing existed.
Premise #2: But if that is true, nothing would exist today because all that nothing yields is nothing.
Premise #3: But things do exist today,
Conclusion: Therefore we must conclude that there exists something that was not caused, had no beginning, and is of a necessary existence which caused everything to begin to exist. This we understand to be "God".

Posted 10/9/2006 3:56 PM by GOODGREYPOET - reply

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TheSocraticClub:

While I enjoy the original version of the cosmological argument you have posted, I personally prefer the new and improved Kalam Cosmological Argument which was formulated by Dr.William Lane Craig. The new and improved version is as follows:

Premise 1: Everything that had a beginning, had a cause
Premise 2: The universe had a beginning,
Conclusion: Therefore the universe had a cause.

This version of the argument is better in my opinion because it clarifies that only those things that begin to exist require a cause. If something is of a necessary existence and had no beginning, then it does not subject to the laws of cause and effect. Furthermore, a being of a necessary existence (let's assume this being is God) would not be subject to the law of cause and effect because it would existence outside of time and most cosmologists agree that cause and effect cannot exist without temporality. The universe exist within time. Hence, it would be subject to the laws of cause and effect. However, as the creator of time, God exists outside of time and would not require a prior cause.

One of the most common objections to the original cosmological argument is: If every event requires a cause then what caused God? Craig effectively eliminates this objection by clarifying that only those things that begin to exist require a cause. And again, if God is a being of a necessary existence then he did not begin to exist, but has always existed. This description is perfectly consistent with the biblical description of God who is described as the "alpha and omega" (ie: the beginning and the end). The biblical God also describes himself as the "I am that I am" (ie: a being of a necessary existence). If thats a coincidence then its a pretty darn big one.  

Posted 10/9/2006 4:10 PM by GOODGREYPOET - reply

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AFTL:

[So it's completely unrealistic to assume an infinite universe or multiverse, but completely reasonable to assume an infinite, supernatural, all powerful deity?]

I wouldn't say its completely unrealistic that an infinite universe or multiverse exists, but it is highly improbable. This is because all the available data corroborates the Big Bang theory. And as I'm sure you know, the standard Big Bang model affirms that the universe is not infite and eternal but began to exist at a precise moment a finite time ago. As for multiverse, there is no actual scientific evidence to support it, at least none that I'm aware of. In other words, if youre going to claim that the universe is infinite then you'll first need to disprove the Big Bang theory, or at least offer some evidence for an infinite universe. Remember, the reason why Steady State theory was abandoned is precisely because no evidence for an infinite universe could be found.

Posted 10/9/2006 4:38 PM by GOODGREYPOET - reply

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[I wouldn't say its completely unrealistic that an infinite universe or multiverse exists, but it is highly improbable. This is because all the available data corroborates the Big Bang theory. And as I'm sure you know, the standard Big Bang model affirms that the universe is not infite and eternal but began to exist at a precise moment a finite time ago. As for multiverse, there is no actual scientific evidence to support it, at least none that I'm aware of. In other words, if youre going to claim that the universe is infinite then you'll first need to disprove the Big Bang theory, or at least offer some evidence for an infinite universe.]
The Multiverse hypothesis allows for the big bang. One of the most plausible multiverse models I've seen shows that universes are created from the black holes of other universes, which becomes a big bang on some other plane of existance (dimension?). I'm not well-enough versed in the physics to prove or disprove this model (or much of anything in physics, I'll admit), but it does have an aesthetically pleasing quality to it (which is absolutely no way to judge truth). I'll make no judgements as to how the universe was created until more evidence is in... but I know which idea I'm rooting for. But basically, it means that while our universe is not infinate, the multiverse very well could be.

P.S. This background gives me a bit of a sense of vertigo.
Posted 10/9/2006 9:01 PM by ArgumentsFromtheLeft - reply

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filow84

How convenient.  With that line of thinking, there appears to be no way of proving the existence of God to be false, which means there would also be no way of proving the existence of God to be true.

Yeah, that's right.  Props.  God can't be proven to exist, nor can he be disproven to exist.  However, we can present evidence in favor or either view. 

On a side note, it is not the universe's fault that you or anyone else struggle with the concepts that comprise it.  Your inability to comprehend something doesn't make it false or nonexistent.

I am a temporal tangible being.  I live in a temporal tangible universe.  All beings understand their habitat, and so do I.  That's why there is no infinite time in this universe.

therealSNEEZY

(2) of your argument is true - Nothing can cause itself - then, your conclusion - therefore there must be a first cause - must be false. If nothing can cause itself, there can be no first cause because this would be a cause that caused itself.

On the contrary, God is the cause.  I understand your objection, but to answer it I'd end up quoting the Bible; so I will refrain.  If it helps, GOODGREYPOET has given an argument that I agree is better:

Premise 1: Everything that had a beginning, had a cause
Premise 2: The universe had a beginning,
Conclusion: Therefore the universe had a cause.

Posted 10/10/2006 12:17 AM by TheSocraticClub - reply

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To understand where time comes from you must understand the Void (absence of dimensions). Bare with me and I shall try my very best to make it short and sweet †

Envisage a hypothetical being "Mr. Photon" who travels at the speed of light. According to Lorenz contraction, Mr. photon arrives exactly at the same time as he departs, he arrives at any point in the universe without transitting any space. To Mr Photon our entire universe is a single point singularity. The universe... and Mr Photon exist in the Void. Time and space to him are an illusion available only for velocity vectors that are less than the speed of light something unavailable to him.

To summarise: Time (and space too) are the product of velocity vectors, a property of matter (well if I say "cosmic energy" certain ludites might start sneering again).

- Was that concise enough to not get you bored?
- Was it too short to answer your question?

† Note: I shall assume you have an understanding of the theory of relativity.
Posted 10/10/2006 5:25 AM by mykid2 - reply

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... oh and I meant to ask if my link to Lorenz contraction was helpful?
Posted 10/10/2006 5:27 AM by mykid2 - reply

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Wow. I feel as though I just entered a gold mine. You, sir, are everything I have been desperately searching for in the Xanga world. Rock on. You will definitely see more of me here. So great to meet you.

Re your post, I'm lovin' it. You addressed the question and arguments beautifully. Your refutations in the post are quite sound, in my opinion. One of the only counters that I could see as being plausible is -- How do we know that this personal God exists? The repy might definitely be, "because we exist." From there the debate would tumble into obscurity by contrasting Darwin and Pasteur-Newton-Einstien, etc. What are your thoughts?

Posted 10/11/2006 12:05 PM by Philosopher4you - reply

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RYC: Oh well, it basically means that causality does not apply at the beginning of time (nor at the end of time and in between it's only a relativistic illusion). The main conclusion is that creator can exist within creation. Either way, the only relevant question is whether creator is intelligent, or perhaps more to the point whether huminity wuz intented, or a coincidental insignificant transient phenomenon.

IMO that choice has been granted to us to make collectively.
Posted 10/13/2006 4:48 AM by mykid2 - reply

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Ryc,

Sorry. I thought the topic was the personal God and not Descartes' rational God was being discussed.

"Candidly, I think I'm far too horribly versed to reply."

-Whatever do you mean by that?

"If I understand you correctly, I'd say that 'personal' is assumed when men speak of God.  God is the ideal of everything positive and I don't think 'impersonal' is positive."

-So you agreed with me in the context that I utilized? 

"On top of this, God, or at least the Christian God, necessarily predestines every action of men (being God) and thus cannot be impersonal.    (I don't deny freewill, so don't assume I'm a determinist.)"

-Are your statements part of a larger theological framework with a name? I'm all about -predestination- but I don't run across many who would argue that the Christian God predestines individual actions.

Posted 10/13/2006 12:17 PM by Philosopher4you - reply

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[How convenient.  With that line of thinking, there appears to be no way of proving the existence of God to be false, which means there would also be no way of proving the existence of God to be true.]

Alas. . . . Apparently, according to your philosophy, that which cannot be proven false also cannot be proven true. It would seem then impossible to prove that two plus two equals four, for I certainly can conceive of no way to prove such arithmetic incorrect. Likewise, I cannot disprove gravity or the concept of a heliocentric universe, so I can have firm belief in neither. Such a strange way to go about looking for solid knowledge.

SocraticClub: I agree almost entirely with this entry, except perhaps in one regard: One thing may (only may) be infinite, and that is size. Take the smallest particle, and divide it by half, and those halves into quarters, and so on. Go to the edge of existence and take one step forward. Time may not be infinite, but size may be, both the infinitely small and the infinitely immense. The following consists of mere speculative (narrated chiefly by Walter O'Dim, the man in black), but it illustrates this point nicely. This I neither quite believe nor disbelieve, but I am intrigued by it.

      “The universe (he said) is the Great All, and offers a paradox too great for the finite mind to grasp. As the living brain cannot conceive of a non-living brain—although it may think it can—the finite mind cannot grasp the infinite.

      “The prosaic fact of the universe's existence alone defeats both the pragmatic and the romantic. There was a time, yet a hundred generations before the world moved on, when mankind had achieved enough technical and scientific prowess to chip a few splinters from the great stone pillar of reality. Even so, the false light of science (knowledge, if you like) shone in only a few developed countries. One company (or cabal) led the way in this regard: North Central Positronics, it called itself. Yet, despite a tremendous increase in available facts, there were remarkably few insights.

      “Gunslinger, our many-times-great grandfathers conquered the-disease-which-rots, which they called cancer, almost conquered aging, walked on the moon—”

      “I don't believe that,” the gunslinger said flatly.
     To this, the man in black merely smiled and answered, “You needn't. Yet it was so. They made or discovered a hundred other marvelous baubles. But this wealth of information produced little or no insight. There were no great odes written to the wonders of artificial insemination—having babies from frozen mansperm—or to the cars that ran on power of the sun. Few if any seemed to have grasped the truest principle of reality: new knowledge leads to yet more awesome mysteries. Greater physiological knowledge of the brain makes the existence of the soul less possible yet more probable by the nature of the search. Do you see? Of course you don't. You've reached the limits of your ability to comprehend. But never mind—that's beside the point.”

      “What is the point then?”’

      “The greatest mystery the universe offers is not life but size. Size encompasses life, and the Tower encompasses size. The child, who is most at home with wonder, says: Daddy, what is above the sky? And the father says: The darkness of space. The child: What is beyond space? The father: The galaxy. The child: Beyond the galaxy? The father: Another galaxy. The child: Beyond the other galaxies? The father: No one knows.
      “You see? Size defeats us. For the fish, the lake in which he lives is the universe. What does the fish think when he is jerked up by the mouth through the silver limits of existence and into a new universe where the air drowns him and the light is blue madness? Where huge bipeds with no gills stuff it into a suffocating box and cover it with wet weeds to die?
      “Or one might take the tip of the pencil and magnify it. One reaches the point where a stunning realization strikes home: The pencil tip is not solid; it is composed of atoms which whirl and revolve like a trillion demon planets. What seems solid to us is actually only a loose net held together by gravity. Viewed at their actual size, the distances between these atoms might become league, gulfs, aeons. The atoms themselves are composed of nuclei and revolving protons and electrons. One may step down further to subatomic particles. And then to what? Tachyons? Nothing? Of course not. Everything in the universe denies nothing; to suggest an ending is the one absurdity.
      “If you fell outward to the limit of the universe, would you find a board fence and signs reading DEAD END? No. You might find something hard and rounded, as the chick must see the egg from the inside. And if you should peck through the shell (or find a door), what great and torrential light might shine through your opening at the end of space? Might you look through and discover our entire universe is but part of one atom on a blade of grass? Might you be forced to think that by burning a twig you incinerate an eternity of eternities? That existence rises not to one infinite but to an infinity of them?

      “Perhaps you saw what place our universe plays in the scheme of things—as no more than an atom in a blade of grass. Could it be that everything we can perceive, from the microscopic virus to the distant Horsehead Nebula, is contained in one blade of grass that may have existed for only a single season in an alien time-flow? What if that blade should be cut off by a scythe? When it begins to die, would the rot seep into our universe and our own lives, turning everthing yellow and brown and desiccated? Perhaps it's already begun to happen. We say the world has moved on; maybe we really mean that it has begun to dry up.

      “Think how small such a concept of things make us, gunslinger! If a God watches over it all, does He actually mete out justice for such a race of gnats? Does His eye see the sparrow fall when the sparrow is less than a speck of hydrogen floating disconnected in the depth of space? And if He does see . . . what must the nature of such a God be? Where does He live? How is it possible to live beyond infinity?

      “Imagine the sand of the Mohaine Desert, which you crossed to find me, and imagine a trillion universes—not worlds but universes—encapsulated in each grain of that desert; and within each universe an infinity of others. We tower over these universes from our pitiful grass vantage point; with one swing of your boot you may knock a billion billion worlds flying off into darkness, a chain never to be completed.
      “Size, gunslinger . . . size.
      “Yet suppose further. Suppose that all worlds, all universes, met at a single nexus, a single pylon, a Tower. And within it, a stairway, perhaps rising to the Godhead itself. Would you dare climb to the top, gunslinger? Could it be that somewhere above all of endless reality, there exists a room. . .?
      “You dare not.”
     And in the gunslinger's mind, those words echoed: You dare not.

Posted 10/13/2006 3:11 PM by StarvingArtist_13 - reply

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@StarvingArtist_13: I think I missed your point?!

However it CAN be proven that the universe held in time and space cannot be infinite by assuming it were and then finding contradiction.
Posted 10/14/2006 2:15 AM by mykid2 - reply

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 StarvingArtist_13---You may be right: matter may be infinite.  However the majority of scientists agree on the discontinuous theory of matter set down by Democritus in ancient Greece.  I basically states that atoms are as low as you can get.  However, it has been revealed that atoms can be split (with catastrophic results), questioning the theory.  As to how large you can get, who knows?  It doesn't make much of a difference really; if size is infinite it is of little importance.  We are as large as universes and as small as subatomic partiticles. 
Posted 10/18/2006 1:07 AM by TheSocraticClub - reply

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God isn't a chain....

And our humans minds are weak and can't understand how God "came into being"

Posted 10/18/2006 8:44 AM by femaleBASSPLAYER - reply

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God isn't a chain....

And our humans minds are weak and can't understand how God "came into being"

So?  I neither claimed God was a chain, nor explained how he came into being (he never did; he always was, but that doesn't matter here).

Posted 10/18/2006 8:14 PM by TheSocraticClub - reply

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EvolutionExplained: Yes, it is impossible for the material universe to be infinite and eternal--the second law of thermodynamics requires a beginning, otherwise the universe would already have wound down into complete randomness. So, since it requires a beginning , and can't have begun itself (I hope that at least is given--you all are a smartbunch), its beginning has to have come fro outside itself. Hence God, a non-material, eternal infinite prime cause, the Necessary Existence.
Posted 10/18/2006 10:27 PM by MrsDarcy_MrsDarcy_MrsDarcy Xanga Premium Member - reply

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men cannot comprehend the laws of their own habitat

Just because we cannot conceive of infinity does not mean it does not exist. We evolved without a requirement for seeing the entire electromagnetic spectrum. We do not feel radiation. Does that mean it does not exist? You cannot picture an atom in your head. You do not know what an electron looks like. You cannot see gravity. We have images in text books that give us something we can conceive. We have a symbol that embodies infinity. We know gravity exists because we have tested it over and over and found the consistency in that mechanism. We know radiation exists, we can measure it with devices. Simply because we have limited sensory perception does not mean it does not exist. If a man is not in the woods to hear the tree fall, does it make a sound? Of course, sound is the movement of air and we know the objective physics of the event.


Ms Darcy

the second law of thermodynamics requires a beginning, otherwise the universe would already have wound down into complete randomness.

You obviously have a lack of understanding of what thermodynamics explains. Second, randomness is not used anymore because of its ambiguity and counterintuitive application. The second law of thermodynamics states that a closed system will undergo irreversible changes that will either keep entropy the same or increase until the system reaches equilibrium. A system doesn't "wind down" as you eluded to in your statement. You also cannot apply the law of thermodynamics to the entire universe unless you know the energy state and condition of the entire universe (you have to know your system). We also assume the universe is closed. There are reasonable possibilities that it could not be closed and we would have no way of detecting it. We assume it closed, and it would be fallacious to apply that assumption to the entire universe to invalidate something untestable. That is unscientific. The fact is, an infinite universe is possible. It is just untestable and therefore moot for the scientific community to investigate. Thermodynamics cannot be applied to invalidate that claim. Your lack of understanding of this physical property is apparent in your statement. Furthermore, conservation laws state that matter-energy cannot be destroyed nor created. This would lead us to think, since the universe is comprised of elementary energy particles, that the universe cannot be destroyed nor created. Again, this would require us to make grand assumptions and no reasonable person makes assertions to this cause, by simply using Occam's Razor. However, you also cannot invalidate it simply because it is unreasonable to make the assertion, it does not make the negative reasonable either.


GoodGreyPoet

the standard Big Bang model affirms that the universe is not infite and eternal but began to exist at a precise moment a finite time ago

The Big Bang Theory explains what happened at a certain moment. It does not say what happened before it. It is impossible to know because calculations we observe require an element of time. Time as we might understand it is contingent on the universe itself. If the universe was condensed to a singularity at the moment of the Big Bang, then the time scale of our universe did not exist until that moment. The universe could have infinitely been just a singularity up until that moment. It could have been God who made our universe in that moment. It could have been an oscillating universe (and to assume thermodynamics wouldn't allow for that cannot apply because we cannot calculate all the effects of a singularity and the entire universe, and still it assumes it is closed, see above for more). It could also be that we came from a multiverse or a hyper dimensional space in which it was a perfect grand universe with nothing in it, but unstable and collapsed on itself after an infinite amount of time and came to be what we know as the Big Bang and our universe and the dimensions of our universe came out as they did and the rest of the hyper dimensions wrapped up down to the Planck length (string theory). The fact is we do not know. To even claim something is improbable requires you to have some knowledge of the probability. You cannot. The Big Bang does not determine the origin of the universe, it simply determines an event that originated our time scale and where all the matter was condensed at at that 0 point of time. It does not explain what preceded that event and that is the mystery all theoretical physicists would love to find out.
Posted 12/14/2006 4:43 AM by online now bryangoodrich - reply


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