OMG -- you should see the Joyce Meyer compound.  My office is literally right across the street.  It's freaking amazing!  If it weren't so heavily fortified, it would be a beautiful place to shoot bridal party images!

BTW -- she's under some scrutiny for tax issues...and I believe her house is for sale.  Or, well it was for a number of months...I think the sign came down, but I'm not sure it was sold.  Her ministry did pay for several houses (4, I think...) on either side of her estate and Joyce's adult children moved in (she claimed she needed a "buffer of protection from stalkers").  Ultimately two of the houses sold last year.  Here are the details on the sale of two of the homes Joyce's adult children lived in...

http://stlouis.blockshopper.com/sales/sale.asp?id=27M310113

http://stlouis.blockshopper.com/sales/sale.asp?id=27M310069 

Not a bad business to be in -- religious real estate -- I'd say...

Religious Real Estate - The largest would be the Catholic church.

GQ

While I am a born again Christian, it is sad things like this happens because it sheds a bad light on Christianity and makes the unsaved think all ministers are like this. I do not succumb or believe in a prosperity Gospel. You get richness of the soul and spirit.  When you give or tithe to the church or God you are to do it out of a cheerful heart and not expect anything in return..if you give just to get then you will end up like the lady in that story.  I have been led to give the last $20.00 in my wallet to a church in need and it was multiplied back to me a month later 5 fold.  It was the Holy Spirit that told me to give and I obeyed.  But that don't mean it will always work that way. I've given and not got anything back but I was satisfied that I did something good to help someone else out.  Most of those prosperity preachers are of one faith if you think about it and they seem to be all about money..give this and give that and you will get back riches.  When I hear something like that I realize they are really twisting scripture around just for their own wallets.  Yeah, it is sad that this will shed a bad light on all churches in the mind of the unsaved. 

Born a Catholic, served mass. I got turned off while in boarding school. Although the school was Anglican, the Catholics were allowed to go to mass on Sunday in the small town of Lennoxville, Quebec. The first time I attended, two men went around with a "change" box, or so I thought, "how convenient for them to make change for paper bills". However, counting change, I realized that they retained 15 cents. I later found out that they charged that for the seat. Then, they came with those baskets to make the collect. Then, the priest - every Sunday without fail - would talk about money and how people should use those white envelopes in the pew in front of them to make further contributions. After a dozen Sundays, I gave up going to church. On another matter, and the use of the "unsaved" word. I may add, also the "infidel" word, and the "church of God". Giving to a church is an honorable gesture. Giving to the poor and needy is a better one. When I see lavish architectural places of worship that need tremendous amounts of money for their upkeep, I wonder if "God" really wanted that. You can interpret the Gospels to a large extent. My take on it, is that the temple of "God" is inside of each of us, and not in some brick and mortar construction to impress people. Same goes for those rich, and colorful garments worn by ministers, priests, and others. What did Jesus wear? Where does this Christian designer clothing come from? Who decided to wear what is worn? As far a judging people as being "unsaved" or "infidel" - is one of the reasons that separate us. That should be a major clue that religions as we know them, do not bring people of all nations together, but rather divide them. Some people believe that the term reli- gion is from the Latin word religare meaning Òto bind fast". Some people interpret that, also, as bringing together. Since a lot of religions are claiming that they have the absolute or more credible "truth" about who God is, and what He really wants, choices of religious groups abound. The day that a "religion" will convince all people of all faiths, that there is one Truth, one Way that binds fast every and each individual, that will be the religion that will "save" humanity. As it stands, each religion only binds people of the same beliefs, values, and faith, while passing judgment on others who do not share the same. Judgment need not be more than saying that other people are "unsaved" or not "born again", or are "infidels". I know, it does not take much to judge...:) In fact, on awakening, we judge everything: a "beautiful" or "bad" day. Good meal, bad meal. Any adjective is some form of judgment. "Ye shall not judge." Even prayer is a form of judgment. As an example, when you say, "God give me the strength for...", you're judging yourself as not having it. Solution? "Be still, and KNOW that I AM God" (Psalm 46:10). Still the mind in deep meditation - not contemplation, not internal dialogue (another form of judgment), not rumination, not prayer - but total silence of the mind. Prayer is asking. Give a chance for delivery to occur before asking again, and again. Meditation is taking delivery of the "grace" or the "answer". Can only come if you shut the mind up, and listen, and then go beyond listening into the grace. Some Christian people like St-Theresa de Avila "got it". Here is an excerpt: The kernel of Teresa's mystical thought throughout all her writings is the ascent of the soul in four stages (Autobiography, Chs. 10-22): The first, or "heart's devotion", is that of devout contemplation or concentration, the withdrawal of the soul from without and specially the devout observance of the passion of Christ and penitence. The second is the "devotion of peace", in which at least the human will is lost in that of God by virtue of a charismatic, supernatural state given of God, while the other faculties, such as memory, reason, and imagination, are not yet secure from worldly distraction. While a partial distraction is due to outer performances such as repetition of prayers and writing down spiritual things, yet the prevailing state is one of quietude. The "devotion of union" is not only a supernatural but an essentially ecstatic state. Here there is also an absorption of the reason in God, and only the memory and imagination are left to ramble. This state is characterized by a blissful peace, a sweet slumber of at least the higher soul faculties, a conscious rapture in the love of God. The fourth is the "devotion of ecstasy or rapture", a passive state, in which the consciousness of being in the body disappears (II Cor. xii. 2-3). Sense activity ceases; memory and imagination are also absorbed in God or intoxicated. Body and spirit are in the throes of a sweet, happy pain, alternating between a fearful fiery glow, a complete impotence and unconsciousness, and a spell of strangulation, intermitted sometimes by such an ecstatic flight that the body is literally lifted into space. This after half an hour is followed by a reactionary relaxation of a few hours in a swoon-like weakness, attended by a negation of all the faculties in the union with God. From this the subject awakens in tears; it is the climax of mystical experience, productive of the trance. (Indeed, St. Theresa herself was said to have been observed levitating during mass on more than one occasion.) Teresa is one of the foremost writers on mental prayer. Her definition was used in the Catechism of the Catholic Church: "Mental prayer [oracion mental] is nothing else than a close sharing between friends; it means taking time frequently to be alone with him who we know loves us." If you take the time to read and study other religions, you will find out that they all have a mystical part that share the same deep meditative experiences that go beyond words, and interpretations. You should read Edgar Cayce's (Virginia Beach) interpretation of St-John's Revelation (Apocalypse), and how the prayer "Our Father, which art in Heaven..." is linked with the chakras that the Hindus have known for centuries. We should learn from other religions rather than reinventing the wheel. Certain individuals who had mystical experiences have started a lot of religions. Their problem came from trying to write that in words for other people to understand. It's impossible to describe a mystical experience with words. You cannot even experience it directly. You can only experience the "effects" of it, once you come out of union with God. When people say they are "ONE" with God, "one" is not "two" (observer and observed). When you're "one", you cannot "know" your "one". Only when you come out of "it" do you know that you were somewhere extraordinary - beyond the limitations of words. The mind cannot describe what it is, because it was "still". Words are the earth - stillness is heaven. Make any sense?...:)

Sorry about the merged paragraphs. Is there something to do to make sure they remain separated? The HTML preview showed paragraphs.

Very well put, Richard. I think along those same lines for the same reasons.

GQ

:)

The first half of this sermon has a decent objection to "prosperity theology":

*** CLICK HERE ***

In short, Jesus was often poor, homeless, and had enemies.

jessus was actually soooo poor, that he had his own treasurer...lol.

i can't wait to be that poor.

Richard, try using insert horizontal line. I'm still reading your post but as always it is fascinating. So much of my perspectives came from my two years of zazen meditation.

Shotshot, I can't tell if you're being serious or sarcastic (sorry). Do you really think Jesus was wealthy because Judas was in charge of managing their money?

Yep. Zazen is good for being aware of when thoughts enter the consciousness and being able to decide what to do with them until the mind becomes like a quiet lake simply reflecting what is, without interpreting it. Beyond being conscious of consciousness lies the absence of the observer & what is observed. No more duality that the mind needs so much to survive with. Not that easy to shut it up into total silence. You don't know you've merged with it (the silence), until you come out of it. ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ It happened to me twice in a major ways, and several times with less intense "out of consciousness" experiences. Once, when coming out of "it", I slowly became conscious of my being, however I still could not, for a few minutes, figure what I belonged to. I panicked a little wondering where I was. Then, this very acrid yellow smell floated across my smelling function, and I became aware that I had a body and was able to consciously integrate it, almost like landing a helicopter. I became totally conscious once integrated, opened my eyes, and smiled. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ I had no memory of what had happened to me before I become conscious again. However, I really felt good inside and out for quite a few days after, and knew that something wonderful had happened without being able to explain what I saw or heard, if anything. For those who may ask: no, I did not smoke, drink or sniff anything before. I followed 4 days of Yoga camp where we exercised and meditated. After, my girlfriend (now my wife of 31 years) and I went to our cottage in the Laurentians to further relax and meditate. Got up at 5:00am to meditate. Came out of it around 6:30am. Time passed as if it was only 20 minutes. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ When you start meditating seriously, a lot of things occur. Sometimes, just before, the mind goes into a dreamlike state where you can see, hear or feel different situations or people that seem very realistic. Very similar to normal dreams, except it's lucid dreaming. It's as if there was a complete history behind those events. You know them to be true (or at least you believe that), although each experience may only last a few seconds. They make sense. They are like a complete other life in some other dimension or time. You are you "living" those things, but the physical body is not always there. Those experiences are built upon your life experiences, your values, your beliefs, your wishes (of seeing God or spiritual beings, for some), and some sophisticated extrapolations of your subconscious mind that supply the raw material to build those lifelike situations and people. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ I truly believe that a lot of religions got started that way with alleged "visions" and "messages" from "spiritual" beings. They seem so real, that I don't blame "prophets" from wanting to share their experiences with others. However, any interpretation of those visions has to go through the mind with its own belief and value filters, and the use of very limiting words: so the personal experiences get highly distorted in the process. Now, translate that from one language to another. More interpretation. Then, get a bunch of guys together to further interpret what was meant, and what should be included or excluded to maintain some integrity in contemporary culture, and you have your Bible, Koran, Bhagavad-Gita, the Book of Mormon, and many others. For some reason, women never seemed to be involved in those councils or meetings. They should have been there to prevent men from going crazy with interpretations that met their need to control women. Still goes on today with certain religions, including certain christianity sects. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ I believe that true spiritual experience cannot be translated into words because the deepest experience is not conscious - only the aftereffects of it are conscious. Feeling good through prayer and religious practice is a mental physical, and emotional experience. Nothing wrong with that, of course. The spiritual experience is beyond that. It transcends all. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ The beauty with meditation is that if you've done it for quite a few years, and stopped doing it, once you come back to it, it's as if you did it a few days before. It's cumulative, and takes very little time to go back deep. Deep meditation is beyond time and space. You go back to where you left off, anytime. ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ The reference 1 Corinthians 15:31, "I die daily". Dying daily in the context of deep meditation makes sense. Only the initiates who had experienced it, really knew what it meant. Others sought a social or moral explanation outside of self. Clueless. The blind leading the blind...:)

Richard, this was well said which is why I have such a conviction of keeping spiritual discovery completely private. To me it almost disgraces it trying to explain it. It's mine and it belongs to me.

You are so right. I've shared only a small part of my experiences over the years. After all, I'm also trying to use words to explain only part of some of my experiences, and it may be interpreted by different people in different ways.

I've never given to television ministries, because I believe it's God's plan for us to give to our local church.

Malachi 3:10 (New King James Version)

10 Bring all the tithes into the storehouse,
That there may be food in My house,
And try Me now in this,”
Says the LORD of hosts,

“ If I will not open for you the windows of heaven
And pour out for you such blessing
That there will not be room enough to receive it.

I do believe God does prosper those who give, but only when we give according to His plan, which includes giving to our local church we attend, and the poor and needy. The problem is many television ministries and even churches have turned the biblical message of prosperity into a get rich scheme, and if money becomes our god then God is not our God anymore. That's why the bible says that the "love of money is the root of all evil" it doesn't say money is the root of all evil but that the love of it is. Our giving is supposed to be an act of worship to God, but if we turn it into giving so that we can become rich then it's not really an act of worship is it?

As far as how everyone believes in their own personal life, that is between you and God, and I don't have any right to condemn or judge you. The bible says "Judge not, that you be judged" Matt 7:1. One day we will all find out our answers to life's greatest questions, but now we are on a journey.

I meant to say in the Matt 7:1 quote "Judge not, that you be not judged" sorry

I am a regular reader, but have never posted on here. I just want to say that not all Pastors are living like this. I have my photography business, my husband has a HVAC/Mechanical Company, and he preaches full time. He makes about $12,000 a YEAR as a Methodist Minister. So, he must keep his company running. We have 3 kids under 12, and would be listed as poverty level based on what the church pays him. Fortunately God has blessed us with our other careers to supplement this. I believe we live a nice life, no huge vacations, large ticket items, but our needs are met by hard work, and by God.

 There are some very great speakers, they do make a great deal of money, but MOST serving God do not live anything like this.

Thanks for letting me comment.

Lori

Thanks Lori. My angle is to not judge people, but to hold them accountable. I think taking advantage of people using religious leverage is really mean.

Joyce Meyers does more to help the poor and needy than you can even imagine. She has always made her accounts and financial statements available to anyone who wants to review them CLICK HERE  Be careful that you don't judge what someone does based on what they have.  God is the only one who knows their hearts and deeds and he'll be the judge.  I do agree that there are people who prey upon the broken hearted in an effort to benefit themselves, and they too, will be judged. I think the idea is to put your faith in God, not a preacher.

Nice post Shawna, I'm sure Joyce Meyers makes her money from her books sold outside the ministry. I really don't understand what is wrong about someone making a great living from writing books, I guess it's okay for Dr. Phil, but not for Joyce Meyers.

Joyce Meyers is in under investigation right now by the Senate for tax evasion. Nobody knows if she is guilty, but we'll find out soon.

gary, Jesus warns against false teachers. the prosperity gospel is not gospel at all, and in fact contradicts so much of what Jesus teaches, and takes out of context the few verses that justifies their agenda. benny hinn is a false, along with joel osteen and others. the undiscerning public and agenda driven media ignore so much of the good of the church while emphasizing the ugliness of counterfeits.

Gary, that might be the case but they are investigating all tv ministers because of the accusations against Richard Roberts, there has been absolutely no evidence against Joyce Meyers. This would be like investigating all photographers because one is accused of something.