If this is the end of times, Then there is nothing you can do just kiss your A** good bye.

You baaad, Gary...:lol:

just keep doing what your doing, keeping your mind open...it will be interesting to see how long the comments go on this one! LOL let the debates begin!

I'm not going to tell you that I understand and know why God works the way He does, because I really don't. I can just set back and watch what happens just like everyone else. The Bible does say the rain falls in just and the unjust, so maybe that explains why even disasters are happening to people no matter if they are Christians or not.

Matthew 5:44-46 (King James Version)

44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?


The biggest reason some people die and come back to life, is because their time isn't finished on this earth. I again don't claim to completely understand why God works the way He does, and the Bible even says that God works in mysterious ways. It's my goal to go to heaven with Jesus too, but I also have a family and would love to be here for my two young daughters (Emily 6 and Josie 7), and watch them grow up, and have a positive influence on them in this life on earth. So, although I am excited about going to heaven, I don't want to go until it is the right time. Beyond this life is eternal life, so this time on earth is very small compared to everlasting life anyway.

Is Frank going to be left behind? I don't know, and I wouldn't judge him, it's between him and God. I do believe when we get to heaven, we will be surprised that we made it, then we'll be surprised to see people there that we thought wouldn't make it, and finally, we will be surprised that people we thought would make it didn't make it.

Scripture is clear that we don't/won't know when the "end of the world as we know it" will be... and it's a good thing, as we humans tend to be very "ninny-like" about authority and absolutes!

C'mon Gary, you're playing neutral/naive, but everyone knows you're way too intelligent not to have a qualified and educated opinion; somehow I doubt successful people like yourself got where you are on the hopes of a magical bearded man in the sky who grants wishes. This is 2008, we've got probes on Mars, the ability to see inside atoms, the mapping of the human genome, etc. etc. Then of course we've got nut-bars who claim that bad things like Katrina happen because Jebus is mad about the gays. Earthquakes happen. Tornadoes happen. Bad cinema happens. I don't doubt that you choose to keep an open mind, but I think you're truly about as troubled/confused about this as you are the Tooth Fairy -- can't prove it ain't so, but ten bucks bets you've already come to a personal conclusion.

Rich - seriously - this much I do know. Those with rigid beliefs refuse to consider/ponder/reflect on any other possibility. I am choosing not to be that kind of person.

For me to say I completely don't believe in Christianity - I don't completely believe in Judaism or Hinduism, etc. I don't completely believe in anything. Because if I did - if I thought I really knew, then I would close my mind.

I don't go through life with my hands over my ears, or my eyes closed. Why should I close my mind?

Jesus? Maybe/maybe not. I don't know and even if I did know I have no proof.

Gary, I noticed your comment in your last post: "I just think it's global warming and seismic activity," which definitely shows an intelligence model in place; so, I tend to assume that someone like yourself must come to some pretty quick personal conclusions when seeing posts/responses starting with "The Bible says" and "Scripture is clear". I hadn't heard of Richard Dawkins until his brilliant book, but what a breath of fresh air it was in a sea of post-911 bible-belt hysteria. While I accept that you'll never embrace atheism, I'm sure many successful Americans such as yourself escaped to Canada to get as far away from that nonsense as possible; even the presidential race gets tainted with this nonsense, from the Obama/Wright controversy to the McCain/Hagee uproar, I'm absolutely amazed by the obsessions of our southern neighbors, and what they prioritize as relevant.

Gary, I have an interesting article for your reading pleasure.

Why A Moral Life Won't Get Us to Heaven

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/moralife.html

@sgdavid - 

Excellent article

The lady that died and came back, it just wasn't her time yet. It is appointed unto man once to die and after that the judgement.  It just wasn't her time.  Earthquakes and disasters happen to all countries, they aren't reserved for the ungodly ones. However, the ungodly ones will get more damage.  Look at how this country was protected and blessed from all the terrorists, etc for many years..it all happened "over there"..well, 9/11 changed that..did that happen because we have left God? Possibly..only God knows..it is clear we are not like we were when we first started..just read the Mayflower Compact and the personal diary of John Adams, we are nowhere near the nation we used to be..times will only get worse...even the Catholic Church has prophecied about the last pope they will have, how he will defect from the faith and be a very bad one.  Yes, once you know the truth you are to be closed. Jesus said "I am the truth"..once you are born again and know Christ, you have no need to know anything else.

@RichTO - 

Being an atheist has never been so popular—at least in the publishing business.

Last year, as the intelligent design controversies took a break in America’s public schools, bestselling books on atheism and evolution proliferated. Among them were Letter to a Christian Nation by Sam Harris, The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, and God Is Not Great by Christopher Hitchens.

Not surprisingly, these books by intellectuals are highly emotional and often shrill. Why are intelligent people so angry about Someone they don’t believe exists?

What amazes me, is if Atheists truly believe there is no God or afterlife, then why all of the effort to evangelize? Why aren't you living for the here and now instead of wasting what little time you have? Why are you so upset about anyone who chooses to be a Christian? Why all of the anger against a God you don't even believe exists?

I don't believe for a moment that your provocative characterization of the issue was meant to get answers to your questions. It was posed, as most of your "religious" comments are, to create controversy. I am not going to even pretend to address your persnickety attitude toward the issue of God's sovereignty and omniscience. I only am going to correct a very glaring error, one that many people commit. It is not the people who are "very good" who will go to heaven, and the "very bad" that go to hell. Jesus, in real time, in real space, bled real blood, and suffered in the place of those who understand and believe that they cannot be good enough. By God's grace and choice, they have been granted to see that they could NEVER be good enough. But, God in His infinite goodness, mercy and wisdom, offers salvation from one's own sin, by receiving the gift bought by God's death on the cross -- the substitutionary death and subsequent resurrection. So, you can debate all the "issues" regarding why God does this or that, and how he administers His Universe. But, just keep in the forefront the fact - historical fact - that God sent His Son to die for the sin and sins of humanity, amongst whom we all are. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life."

There will be ONLY sinners in heaven - sinners forgiven and cleansed by the blood of God's son. In hell, will be all those other sinners who will contend that they didn't deserve it, or blame it on someone else, including God. Salvation is a gift, and you cannot earn it by being good enough.

dgrove21

c'mon...the earthquake happened in china is a result of the plan for being an aetheist country??? that's off the wall like sharon stone saying china deserved the earthquake because of bad karma from doing all those yucky things to the tibetans.

Many Western missions maintain the true number of Christians in China is likely to be 60 million and up. An Open Doors spokesman said they estimate there are 60 to 80 million Christians, so I wouldn't characterize China as an Atheist country. Many of the leaders may not be Christians, just as many in our legislature don't claim Christianity, but it doesn't mean that it is an Atheist country.

To say there is no God is to say you have enough knowledge to know there is no God. But an atheist can never have enough knowledge to be certain there is no God. He would have to know everything, because if there is something outside his area of knowledge, that something could include God. An atheist would have to be everywhere in and out of the universe all at one time, because if there is anywhere he cannot be, God could be there.

No atheist can claim total knowledge, therefore atheism is self–refuting, because knowing everything and being everywhere is to be like God. Since no one can prove ‘there is no God’, the question becomes irrelevant and so does atheism.

None of us are good enough to get to heaven.....

so personally....

I'm shootin' for purgatory!

None of us are good enough to get to heaven.....

so personally....

I'm shootin' for purgatory!

dgrove - 10 points. aside from the little bit of snideness at the beginning, you pretty much killed it.

also, the article posted is pretty good too, although mildly dummy-slanted. i have COUNTLESS books and articles written by VERY well decorated scholars and teachers that would make (this is just my opinion, don't be a nerd and yell at me) dawkins and his homies cry. no one ever shows interest in reading any of it...but that's okay. i have it, if anyone is interested.

the argument about "smart people don't believe in God" is just dumbbbbbbbbb. i'm a smart person, and i believe in God. and Jesus. and even the bible. why? well, from experience first, but secondly because i've done my research, and found that for every "we can prove Jesus was just a shadow of mithra/osiris/horace" article, there's one (or 20) articles saying the opposite, and proving (in their own way) that he was who he said he was and that he walked the same earth we do. same with creation - we saw that a few months back. same with prayer. same with....well, every topic that is presented.

the oddity i see in all of this is how staunch everyone is no matter which side they sit on, like gary keeps mentioning. i can understand not wanting to believe something is true, and in response - filtering everything through a certain pre-decided perspective. and i think everyone does that to some extent, but the curious thing about most christians is that they CAME FROM THIS PLACE and and seem to forget it. why do we all forget that there was a time when we hated the idea of Jesus or a loving God ourselves, and jump right to facts and figures? it's so strange to me.

i want to tell everyone that staunchness and fervor do not equal rightness. ever. which i think is the underlying theme here. i learned a long time ago, through this blog, in fact...that yelling louder or citing more materials does NOT make you right, nor does it convince anyone else that you're right. is your conscience talking with your consciousness and
if so, what's it saying? is it saying "man...i've ever actually checked out the other side. why am i so defensive?" or maybe "dude, i've been there done that...i know EVERYTHING there is to know now, i'm extremely right!". the first one is a call to do some soul searching - the second is a call to do some major humbling. but the third one...the third one is where everyone will be much better off and is this: "all i know is what i've experienced, and i'm open to experiencing more without any filter or any figuring...just the experience and what i learn from it".

dude, if christians can't lay down the "gospel of words" and pick up the "gospel of power" - then they have nothing. all we seem to posses anymore is the ability to evangelize people with words instead of action, prayer and bringing them into encounter with God.

i have great books. amazing articles. unbelievable stories. but most of them won't do anything for anyone unless they want to lay down the God-is-dead colored glasses and look for some inconsistencies in what they think vs. what others think. i do this all of the time. but like i've heard said many times by one of my best friends:

"the man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an idea".

live from your experiences and don't be afraid to experience more. even outside of what you believe. if what you believe really is "right" then it'll be confirmed through every experience you live through. every time. like mine has. and i used to be on the "smart people don't believe in God" side for a while too. ;)

that was all over the place, but i think it made sense. at least i hope so.

and to stir it up a little more, lol...has anyone seen this movie yet?: movie trailer.

Part of your confusion is that you are mixing up a lot of different issues. Primarily: General Judgement (group, country, etc.) vs. Specific Judgement (individual).

"I guess that's in the "plan" that they get leveled during the end-times." - Everyplace gets leveled during the end times. No place is singled out, no place is left out. The end-times is general punishment for all, just like Noah's Flood. Some think that people who are "saved" (I didn't say "good") will be spared the punshiment (like Noah), but no place is spared.

"if her goal is to go to heaven and be with Jesus, then why did she come back?" - I don't know who you are referring to, but life is not like football where once you cross the goal line, the play is over. The purpose of Man is not to get to heaven, but to worship God. Part of worship is being "saved" and that gets you to Heaven, but getting to Heaven is not the goal.

"That's the part that confuses me is the "raising from the dead" part." Raising from the dead refers to the final judgement. All people (good and bad) are raised from the dead for the final judgement. Those who are "saved" go to Heaven, and those who are not "saved" go to the Lake of Fire. It raises the issue of what happens at the time of death? Are people put into suspended animation until the end times? Do "saved" people go to Heaven right away, and are thus not raised? Are people preliminary judgement-raised-final judgement? I think it is a combination. Maybe it is literal for people who are alive during the end times. I also think it is symbolic of what happens at the end-times. Maybe at the first death, people go to where they are suppose to go. At the end-times, there is a final battle where final judgement occurrs.

Gary, do you just put these questions up so you can get more people to respond to your website?  Or are you seriously curious?  I'm sure your good friend Mike Colon could answer these questions easily if you really are interested.

Seriously, I think you must be asking a lot of questions because you don't understand what Jesus really did and who God really is, even though you have had some experience with religion and perhaps even receiving grace at one time.

God is truly good and nothing he does is to harm anyone.  People sin and make horrible choices and I believe that God is patiently longing for them to making the choice to follow Him before it is too late.  I believe that Jesus will be one of the ones crying when the end really comes because so many will have made the choice not to believe or receive the mercy He has for them.  He loves us all.

My name is Sarah Kobunski and you can call me at 740-586-5637 or e-mail me at aboundinginlove@hotmail.com if you are truly interested in knowing how great God really is.

You supernaturalists crack me up with all your authoritative proclamations about matters of the spirit.

And yes gary, I will be left behind... along with Keith Richards, Lou Reed, Sharon Stone, Chrissie Hynde... and just about all the other cool people.

What a dorkfest heaven will be.

Or as my favorite bumpersticker says.... "Its YOUR hell... YOU burn in it".

Silly.

Words, explanations, justifications, tons of links proposed by proponents of different points of view - but probably not clicked by those who have a reinforced concrete mind set, and believe that absolutely NOTHING will ever change their belief. You can tell by the lack of comment that follow proposed links, especially from christians, who probably did not click on anything that was not "christian". I may be wrong.

Besides...Everyone is repeating what someone else has said. Parrots.

Do I believe in God? Sure! But not the one described by the christians, here, nor the muslims who reduce Him to their own interpretation. For me God is Silence. All that gibberish about heaven, hell, good, bad, evil, better than thou crap, last days, physical rapture - is so full of it, it's laughable, at best.

Words, just words - invented by man. Babel. Man-made religions. Confused languages. Babel was a city that united humanity, all speaking a SINGLE LANGUAGE and migrating from the east (from the "east" is relevant - not from the west). Probably that some misconception of where God was, got some people building a "Tower" to reach God, just like many religions attempt to do to this day. Different languages (interpretations) are still used to split people up, instead of getting them back together like the good old days of Babylon.

Puhlease..."God patiently longing...Jesus crying..." If He of Jesus really loves us all, then they'll accept us as we are. God created us in his image, no? Why would he be sadistic enough to not accept his own creation? Lose the mind, lose the sins - and karma.

And, then, what are we going to do with all our family members and ancestors once we meet Him face to face? Sit around all day long praying, gloating, putting on happy faces, walking hand in hand in white robes on clouds? Anyone ever think of what we will be really doing once we're over "there"? Please describe that destination to me. If I'm going to buy a christian ticket (or any other for that matter), I'd like to know what my destination will be like. What will be my form, what will I see, hear, feel, and what will I be doing? Maybe the muslim heaven is more interesting (virgins, wine, rivers, etc.). Sell me the sizzle.

Other question: Is there, here, a christian who has seriously studied other belief systems or religions for at least a few years, and still believe in the christian precepts presented here - as the absolute truth?

"Since no one can prove ‘there is no God’, the question becomes irrelevant and so does atheism

I'm not sure you want to go there.

Since you can't PROVE there IS a god, then you are declaring yourself and your religion irrelevant at the same time.

Unless, of course you want to share with us proof. But granted, I'll probably laugh.

F

As a side note... it never ceases to amaze me what a loony bunch of extremists some of my fellow photographers are. Politically, spiritually whatever... amazing.