I read a
Craigslist repost by a "recovering nice guy" directed towards past girlfriends:
What happened to all the nice guys? The answer is simple: you did.
See, if you think back, really hard, you might vaguely remember a Platonic guy pal who always seemed to want to spend time with you. He'd tag along with you when you went shopping, stop by your place for a movie when you were lonely but didn't feel like going out, or even sit there and hold you while you sobbed and told him about how horribly the (other) guy that you were ****ing treated you.
The post goes on in this vein, with an increasing amount of bitterness.
I have a strong reaction to posts like this. Ordinarily I wouldn't post about something like this, but somebody told me recently that they had been subbed to me for years... and felt like they didn't know me at all. So here goes.
I have next to zero sympathy for "nice guys". I guess it comes down to a few aspects of the nice guy mindset:
- Nice guys assume the opposite of a nice guy is an "@$$hole". That's not true - the opposite of nice guy is being a man (more on that below).
- Nice guys take no responsibility for their love life. They are nice, so they "deserve" for the girl to appreciate them for who they are.
- Nice guys demonize women for not seeing how great nice guys are.
I disagree with all three of these thoughts. I am not an expert on women, so please take my thoughts here with a huge grain of salt:
1) The Opposite of Being a Nice Guy
Are you hiding your feelings from a girl you love? Figuring you'll get close to her as a friend, and then surprise her with your feelings later? Constantly downplaying the sexual tension so that she's not threatened by you?
We've all been there. At some point though, you have to grow up. I don't know how to put this other than: be a man. If you like someone, don't hide your feelings. You don't have to ask a girl out the first time you meet her. But don't talk about other girls and encourage her to talk about guys.
You don't have to be super smooth, and it's totally fine to be friends with someone as you get to know each other. But be a man. Don't be afraid to flirt a little bit (or banter with someone) if you like them. Invite them out to a fun bar or restaurant, and then make sure you know the menu and have a plan. After dinner, have the name of 3 places you could go afterwards to keep the conversation going. Being prepared is always appreciated (as long as you don't overdo it, which is creepy).
Most girls don't want to date @$$holes. They just want to date a man. There's a big difference.
2) Take responsibility
Being nice doesn't mean you deserve anything.
Love is something you have to earn. Is someone you like not falling for you? Maybe it's your fault. Maybe you're not paying enough attention to them, or maybe you aren't interesting. It's easy to become more interesting: do more fun stuff, read more interesting magazines, talk to more cool people.
When I was younger, I was shy and would have to write down lists of things to talk about. Is it pathetic to outline a list of topics, and then make sure that you're comfortable talking about them? Probably (ok definitely). But nobody has to know that you're prepping...
Most of all, just take responsibility for your love life. If things aren't going well, figure out what's up and make some upgrades.
3) Don't demonize women!!
This is the flip side of taking responsibility. A lot of nice guys I know demonize women, and blame them for having the wrong priorities.
There's nothing wrong with bitterness towards the other sex (we've all been there). But demonizing an entire gender in general will get you nowhere. It's a lot more productive to focus on what you can control: yourself.
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When it comes to dating, be a man, take responsibility, and don't demonize women. Whatever you don't, please don't be a "nice guy"!
Sincerely,
A Recovering Nice Guy
Comments (266)
mr. john, we're nice guys.
we are man.
do the right thing!
I think, from a girl's perspective, you covered it very nicely. I don't know; I still hold onto the hope that there are nice guys. The boy that I've been seeing lately is very nice, which is so different than what I'm used to. I don't think it's an act because I've known him for a year and a half or so and we've only recently gotten to know each other on a deeper level. Maybe I'm missing something. Anyway, I feel like your post had very valid points. Well written, too.
I got lucky and married both a nice guy and a man! I think that is what women really want!!! BTW, I think you are most likely the same as my hubby, you too are both!!!
Nice Guys = Mediocre males who refuse and/or are unable to make themselves better (what you'd call a man), usually on a personal level.
I'd actually disagree on the women dating a man vs asshole comment. Women date assholes because they're drawn to the whole bad boy image - as juvenile as it may be. Yet they are also drawn to the challenge changing them into a "good guy". Of course, this can differ depending on how high the female sits on the dating scale. In my experience, the higher the chair the greater the desire for a challenge.
Interesting pep-talk. I can't really say much being that I know more about men than women, and therefore have not much input in the eyes of a female other than...Everyone has different preferences when it comes to relationships. Some may want a sub to kick around, others may want one to give them black eyes...you never know with people today. There's nothing wrong with being nice--just don't be a 'doormat.'
i agree and i could rant on and on about why these pussy 'nice' guys give the real nice guys out there a bad name. reasons listed here.
AMEN.
although, i have to say, i'm definitely dating a "nice guy". but he's a nice guy with balls.That's a truly revolting piece (the "nice guy" one, not yours, John). The gist is, "what, you thought I was your friend? I just wanted to get in your pants. Stupid bitch." He was an asshole all along.
Agree! "nice guys" i like how they don't tell us they like us until its too late its frustrating at times!
thanks for posting this John. I agree with all your points. I always tell people "nice guys don't finish last. boring guys do." =X. But this type of "nice guy" will never even leave the starting point. Trouble with certain guys is that they think they can be the "friend" until they can be the "lover" but from the girl's POV, if u ever become that kind of a "friend" you'll always be the friend. Good post.
"Nice guys" .. "assholes".. in the end aren't the both trying to get in your pants? The only difference is the nice guy acts like he has only the purest of intentions.
oh BRAVO! seriously. this is a really fresh perspective on an old subject. I've never thought about it that way and it's completely perfect.
Rock on. If a woman has a platonic guy friend who's always there for her but never indicates any real interest, she will more than likely assume that he isn't interested. Indeed, he should maybe flirt a bit, or ask her to go out on a Friday night. She may become relieved.
"Oh, I thought he only thought of me as a friend. Well, this is nice."
If she isn't interested in him after all, then he can relax and move on and find someone who will be interested in him- without losing his friendship with the first girl.
The problem with labels is that they are limited and can become confused. To me, a nice guy is a guy who is a nice person. Treats you well, with respect and dignity, etc. I think people confuse "nice guy" with a duplicitous guy. IE pretending to be a friend and posing as "harmless" but actually very interested and using it as a tactic to get closer to a girl he really likes. Actually a guy like that IS an asshole. He may be taking the softer approach and come off like a pussy. But to me, that's not being nice at all. That's being a liar.
I actually would appreciate more nice guys. By that I mean guys who treat ladies with respect, that if they have an interest in a lady they are honest and up front about it, if they do not have interest in a lady they do not string her along in the hopes of getting sex or affection out of her, that treat women the way they would want to be treated, and as you indicate above don't demonize the entire sex because of the bad actions of a few. To me, a nice guy is a real man. Not a jerk, not an asshole, and certainly not a pussy.
thumbs up on not demeaning women. oh, i mean demonizing. same difference.
Awesome post.
Interesting post. I ahve to thinik about that one.
hehe how funny this topic is being discussed lately. all men are the same. they just try to act differently.
hehe you're so right. Nice guys suck.
I'm a nice man =D.
@steph843 - Ain't that the truth!!! hahaha. :)
Enjoyed your post...so now we know your thoughts on nice guys vs. the opposite of nice guys. What's next? C'mon! Birthdate, credit card number, address? ;)
I know. You can never please the masses. ;)
Beautifully said! I'm currently dating a Recovering Nice Guy as we speak! And you were right on the money! hahaha
@gumby_smirks - i think that can be true, but in my experience, most of the assholes pretend to be nice guys that eventually turn into their former asshole self once their chase is over. assholes are always nice when they want something, and it's easy for assholes to pretend to be prince charming - when they want to be.
assholes are actually a huge turn off for me. but at the same time, i need a guy to be the man that i can look up too. nice guys tend to be weaker, indecisive and less like a man (not all nice guys of course but in general).
i don't think nice guys have to be assholes to get the girl. they really just have to be a man. i probably would have dated a couple of nice guys if they had just been more like a man instead of whining about it years later.
HEAR HEAR!