I'd managed to get through the reams of notes I had for my second and last installment of our series, "Is There a Place for Homosexuals in the Evangelical Church?" in pretty good shape. After interfacing with a handful of folks after the end of service, I had to zip over to the Parenting Class to join my wife and other pastors/spouses in responding to specific questions about our families. So I was caught quite off guard when I returned to the sanctuary to see one of my closest friends and mentors getting settled in the front row for the 2nd worship service. Seeing him was incredibly unsettling to me, since I was pretty sure he was clearly a "live and let live" cat and that definitely was not how I was going to come out on this issue of homosexuality.
It's one thing to get through a tough message without being distracted or demoralized by seeing the look on the faces of folks you actually KNOW disagree with your take. It's a whole three levels above that when it's one of your best friends and he/she is sitting front row/center, not more than 20 ft in front of you. This friend is one of the recognized and respected pioneers in the AsiAm scene for the past 40+ years. He's brilliant, well-read, and has the uncanny ability to see through a tangle of concepts and pull out what's often overlooked or taken for granted. Did I already mention that he's several notches well to the left of me in his ideology? Did I also mention that God has used him over the past 30+ years to speak deep wisdom into my soul?
So I couldn't help notice that his body language and facial expressions throughout the message were fairly unmoved. Sort of "Sorry, but you're not convincing me." It was all I could do to maintain my focus and emphasis, given the vibe I was picking up from my friend.
Following the benediction I stepped down off the platform right into Dan's embrace. "Bro, you KNOW that I seriously disagree with your convictions, but I am SO proud of you for having the courage to bring this critical issue out of the shadows and out into the public square. Far too many AA Christian churches simply won't talk about this, even though people in most of those churches are struggling or dealing with homosexuality. Way to go, man!"
Wow--would that be the response from someone far, far to the right of my good friend? I don't know for a fact, but I seriously doubt that they could think I'd gotten something wrong yet still be enthusiastic about my having the guts to re-frame and deal with this gnarly, avoided subject. That's truly something my friend has taught and modeled to me over the past 3 decades--those who are liberal with grace are much more likely to practice "convicted civility" than those who are extremely conservative.
I leave you with the Richard Mouw (Pres, Fuller Seminary) quote I kicked off this morning's message with: "People today who are civil, Martin Marty observed, often don't have very strong convictions. And people who have strong convictions often are not very civil. What we need, he said, is convicted civility...It is so easy--as Marty made clear--to err on one side or the other, holding both up simultaneously takes constant effort...But the effort to keep this marriage together needs to be made...We must be clear in telling others about the hope that lies within us, the apostle Peter teaches; but he quickly adds that we must always do so 'with gentleness and respect' (1 Peter 3:15-16)."
Both of my messages should be up on www.ebcla.org by Wednesday this week, along with the PPt slides.
And if you know folks in SoCal, please help me get the word out for the May 10th Conversation on Homosexuality, 7-9:30 pm, EvergreenLA, 1255 San Gabriel Blvd., Rosemead. Directions are on the website.
Time to take my wife out for a dinner date!
Comments (16)
ah cool, I was going to ask you to put up your notes, but hey...
Pastor Ken, you rock!!! Thanks for being so transparent and convicting!
Hiron, it was your pastor (Kev Doi) who got me to understand that ALL of human sexuality is broken, which was the essential "new" insight that I build both messages around. When I see him this Tuesday, I will definitely thank him profusely for making me wiser than I was before.
wow, you actually digested like, what, 70% of the material suggested to you?
Wow, great story. There's a big difference between how the world views tolerance, and what tolerance really is. Your friend showed great tolerance when he said he disagreed with you but was impressed that you spoke about your convictions. All too often when we say we "disagree" we are automatically viewed as intolerant. I, too, am impressed that you brought the subject up. It's one of those subjects that most churches won't touch on simply because they are afraid to lose members. We can't lead our churches in fear; we have to lead them in truth.
@FromFLWithLove - You really hit the nail on the head twice! First, why my friend has been such an AWESOME friend for nearly 30 years. Years ago, a pastor warned me NOT to be friends with Dan because he might influence you in the wrong way. That pastor was right in that Dan HAS influenced me greatly; what he didn't get is how deeply spiritual and wise he is. I think what still turns that pastor off about Dan to this day is that he's lots more liberal than he is. Liberal doesn't automatically mean "less Christian" just as conservative doesn't automatically mean "more Christian." It's really about the fruit (of the Spirit), isn't it? Do your convictions result in you or me loving God and neighbor/enemy more or less?
Second nail you hit, imho, is that it's incredibly tempting to lead our churches out of fear of losing people. Honestly, that fear is still in my head, just less so. What God is teaching me is that displaying courage of one's convictions, yet shared with compassion and humility, is being a shepherd and a leader. Like my good friend Dan, even if some disagree with you, if they're solid people, they'll respect you for trying to do something worthwhile.
@heyjuke - Something like that, Anthony. What really helped me for Sermon 1 was new IVP book "Ex Gays?" and for Sermon 2 Marva Dawn's "Is It a Lost Cause?".
Hi Ken...
I used to be on staff at Faith Bible Church (Asian Am church in Seattle). Someone gave me a link to the info regarding the Conversation on Homosexuality and that led me to your blog. It sounds like it is going to be a great event and I'm excited that you are bringing this subject matter to the Asian American Christian community. I would love to be there, but it's a bit far from the Northwest!
By any chance, will it be made into a podcast? I'd love to "be" there, even if not physically present!
Chris Hyde
Hi Pastor Ken - Just wanted to say thanks for a GREAT word on this yesterday. I think it may have been the most clear, direct and helpful teaching I've heard on the subject -- and actually quite convicting. As a single, Asian heterosexual person, it was so great to hear my own singleness affirmed as a blessing from the pulpit, and also make the connection that it gives me some integrity to speak into what goes on for my gay friends -- and life as a single person can be a very rich thing indeed. I'm not calling them into anything I'm not doing right now, technically... Also, though I fit right into what the majority of Evergreen looks like, I have often times felt "different" because of my interests and/or non-traditional Asian upbringing, and so on that level it was also great to understand my own singleness at least for the time being. I know you probably couldn't hear me, but I was "Amen"-ing out loud a lot from my seat. :)
@trooperdog - We've been so focused on "the making of" documentary of the May 10th event that we haven't even given any thought to podcasting the Conversation. I'll discuss it with the director of the film. I'm also going to see whether everyone thinks it would be ok to record the voices. Whatever is decided, you'll hear about it hear. thanks for tracking this!
pken.
Hey Pastor Ken!
Sorry to have missed your sermons on this topic, but I hope to catch them online perhaps. Anyway, thanks for posting about this homosexuality conversation and for demonstrating yourself what "convicted civility" means! You take a strong stance on homosexuality and yet there is compassion and love. I applaud you for taking a stand for Biblical truth and risking looking a bit too conservative and intolerant. I think it's very dangerous when we let culture influence the church, and I see that happening a lot these days. I also think it's dangerous when we as Christians overemphasize grace to the point of turning it into some kind of license for disobedience. If we just want Christ to affirm the way we want to live anyway, then He wouldn't have needed to die!
I think as Christians, we all have to carry the Cross, and for our brothers and sisters struggling with homosexual and heterosexual sins, it may be a heavy one indeed. There's gotta be a way to talk about it, support one another in the struggles, and love one another without pretending the sins are not offensive to God. There's gotta be some kind of balance and I do appreciate you bringing up the example of Jesus, who came down hard on sin but loved people and had compassion. Something I'm still wondering myself: How do we take a stand against sin and yet be gracious and compassionate? The world (and often the church) would have us see that these cannot co-exist, as grace seems to now mean total acceptance and tolerance.
One of your quotes: "It's really about the fruit (of the Spirit), isn't it? Do your convictions result in you or me loving God and neighbor/enemy more or less?" I know that it is by "their fruit we will recognize them", and yet I can't help but think that God can use anyone, even a wayward tele-evangelist or Pastor Ted Haggard, to bless people and to do His ministry. In other words, people can bear fruit, but still be in error, or still be harboring willful sin it seems. I know for me, I can never take for granted that God is automatically pleased with me just because my ministry is flourishing and everyone around me seems blessed. Homosexuals may claim that their convictions result in loving their neighbor more and pursuing a gay lifestyle with that person, "out of love". So I think it may be tough to judge obedience and truth from this. The only true love for God is demonstrated by our obedience to Him (John 14:21).
I have Christian friends who are gay -- one has renounced or modified his faith to accommodate the gay lifestyle but another has embraced a celibate lifestyle out of his desire for obedience to God. I really respect my celibate brother for his choice, though it is a very hard and lonely one.
In terms of judging, 2 passages help me out in this area: I think of 1 Cor 5 in saying that we as Christians have no business judging or condemning the non-believer. However, we are called to rebuke and keep accountable any person who calls himself a Christian and yet is sinning. I guess God hates hypocrisy (no compassion for the Pharisees!) as Matthew 7 also sobers me and helps to curb any condemnation that may be hypocritical. As a conservative Christian, I do appreciate you being willing to have a conversation about this and I hope conservatives can also come to the table with firm convictions but without critical, condemning spirits. You may indeed get backlash from conservatives who are offended by the conversation and from liberals who are offended by your position, but I say bring it on! You're right -- Jesus had backlash wherever He went and we can't be ruled by our fear of it. I hope to attend the event on the 10th if I can!
-XT
@sedaqah -
Second nail you hit, imho, is that it's incredibly tempting to lead our churches out of fear of losing people. Honestly, that fear is still in my head, just less so. What God is teaching me is that displaying courage of one's convictions, yet shared with compassion and humility, is being a shepherd and a leader. Like my good friend Dan, even if some disagree with you, if they're solid people, they'll respect you for trying to do something worthwhile.
This is so true. We can't lead out of fear of losing people. God is much bigger than we are, and he will use the truth to bring people to himself. Again, great post!
Wonderful sermon this past Sunday, Pastor Ken! Glad that my bf and I were able to speak with you after it as well :) I'm always so blessed when I come back to Evergreen. Amazing worship and I can always expect a sermon that is challenging. Certainly update on how the forum goes on May 11th!
I hope that you will continue to post about socially relevant topics as they relate to Jesus. I appreciate the focus on love... love at the center of faith.. love at the core of Christ...love that is challenging but integral. No, Christians are not perfect or good at this, but it's something we HAVE to focus on. The social and political issues that challenge how we love other people are also things I am just as passionate about except that I am still wanting to take the time to be more informed. Your powerpoint slides were very clear and informative when dealing with the issue of homosexuality in the church. Sigh, my socio-political barometer has been a little rusty since graduating from Cal, I feel I had more bandwidth there, haha. Thanks for reminding me of how important these issues are.
@ambidreamz - It was great to reconnect with you on Sunday and meet the Main Squeeze. Thanks for the encouragement. I will definitely post about how the May 10th Conversation goes. And since I'll be conducting an ongoing conversation on this issue for the next 5 Sundays @ church, I'll probably keep posting about those as they evolve. Go Bears!
in tomorrow's NYT, a profile of young gay marriage:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/27/magazine/27young-t.html
Hello Ken -found my way here from revelife subs and a subject very close to my heart - moms and cancer - after having read down your frontpage i though you would enjoy the writing of Such_Were_You
- blessings
f