For all the hype and anticipation leading up to the unprecedented May 10th Conversation about Homosexuality that our church hosted for Christians on Social Issues (CSI), I find it hard to believe it's been 48 hours since it happened. Our church is selling a 2-CD set ($4, I believe) if you want to have your own copy but the entire conversation (sans the 22-min movie "In God's House") should be available for listening/download at www.ebcla.org this week sometime.
As I shared in my brief opening attempt to "frame" the evening, my wife's biggest concern/fear is that both some who attended and some who didn't will distort and contort what we not only were praying would happen but we believe indeed happened that evening. Even though Moderator/Host Bill Watanabe made a point of repeating throughout the evening that the purpose was to facilitate an honest and personal conversation around the issue of homosexuality and the AsiAm evangelical church, that there was little chance that anyone or everyone would agree with what people up front said, that this was not going to be a debate on what the Bible really says, there are still plenty of people, especially Christian ones, who do not believe it is wise or even 'biblical' to foster an unconstructed, unbiased dialogue on the subject of homosexuality. Even to 'allow' an openly gay Christian (shudder!) the freedom to reveal his painful journey and to speak of his current conclusion that making him homosexual must have been God's choice because it certainly wasn't his, that by itself is a terrible error because it says to people that any person's journey carries the same weight of 'truthiness' as God's eternal Word. I know for a fact that there were some in attendance who came with these convictions and left with these concerns because I observed one of them near the end of the evening trying to convince Bill to allow him some microphone time (denied!) and immediately afterwards that person and his buddy (I was going to say 'partner' but that might REALLY freak them both out!)--well-worn Study Bibles firmly in hand--spent about 10 minutes spelling out the above concerns (and more!) before I told them that their time with me was up. Before I lost patience, I kept trying to tell them that, in my two earlier sermons, I'd already clearly stated that the practice of homosexuality was a sin--as they believed--but I just wasn't as uncivil about it as they were. If the camera wasn't filming this confrontation, I probably would have pulled the trigger on that argument sooner!
What Gary Hayashi did that night was talk openly and insightfully about what it was like to grow up and serve in the Christian Church while struggling secretly with feelings of same sex attraction. He remembered feeling stirrings of SSA as far back as age two. Most of us straight folks who were there that night had never before heard the pain-soaked journey of a now-openly-gay Christian. Of the years of self-loathing. Of the failed attempts to 'butch up' and be more masculine. Of the reprimands growing up for having crushes on boys. Of the two desperate episodes when suicide seemed the better option. Of the startling challenge from the God of the Bible one day to see "if I don't love you as you are." Marian Sunabe and I had heard bits and pieces of Gary's story, but even we were astonished at the level to which Gary took us into his life. He was able to do that BECAUSE he knew that he wasn't going to be attacked, wasn't going to be put on the defensive, wasn't going to be invalidated because some of his Christian convictions don't match some of ours. And so what we were treated to was breath-takingly revealing. The deep degree of self-revelation that Gary risked in front of more than 300 people was unprecedented in a predominantly AsiAm evangelical setting. Gary was able to give us an amazing gift that night BECAUSE we had all agreed that this was going to be a conversation around the issue of homosexuality.
Did I agree with everything he said? No, and he didn't need me too. Did I agree with everything Marian said? No, and she (maybe for the first time) didn't need me too either. Did those two agree with everything that I said? Absolutely not, and I'm STILL upset about that! (I kid you, ok?) Again, what we had been learning in our times together in preparation for May 10th was what I believe we were able to model: how to have a civil, respectful, and real conversation even in the face of differing convictions.
I've heard from a number of people from EBCLA who were there who said that, while they didn't agree with some of what any of us three said, they were elated that we displayed such honesty and respect around an extremely controversial and divisive subject. Those from the activist LGBT community who were there were simply astonished that there was such a huge turnout AND that it never became a witch-trial AND that it happened in an evangelical, historically Asian (but now diverse) church. They haven't stopped thanking us for pulling this together, even though they know that my official position stops way short of theirs on this issue.
I'm sure that there are very conservative, very concerned Christian brethren at this very moment who are sounding the warning claxons on their blogs that Pastor Ken Fong and this church (hey, what about CSI?) are wolves in sheeps clothing, that we can't be trusted and that we are a dangerous church. But I also know that right now, Christians and nonbelievers in the LGBT community are also talking nonstop about what happened on May 10th. About how CSI and EBCLA were willing to risk getting tarred and feathered because God's perfect love casts out fear (1 Jn 4:18). And perhaps, just maybe, some of them are rethinking their attitudes about God and His good news, that it might even include them, but on His terms. So maybe we ARE a dangerous church.
Every day, each of us must share the same living space, the same church, the same work environment, the same country, and the same planet with LOADS of folks who don't share our convictions. Our differences revolve around things like sexuality, politics, culture, religion, music, etc. I'm convinced it's crucial that we all have solid convictions and as a Christian, I'm biased towards the kind that come from a high view of the Bible. But there's never going to be a day when everyone on earth or at least in our specific portion of the planet share all the same convictions. All of this is to say that it's absolutely necessary AND crucial that we all come to our senses and realize that each of us is already here (personhood), that none of us is moving to another planet (global village), and so ALL of us better figure out how to co-exist civilly alongside people who don't share our convictions.
And if, like me, you claim to be an apprentice of Jesus, we should be forging that path of reconciliation for the rest of the world.
Comments (34)
I thought your sermon sunday served as a good part 4 to this whole thing...
1 + 2 - your two sermons
3 - the conversation
4 - your sermon sunday and more of a biblical reason why as to have the conversation...
those ppl with the study bibles must not have heard your sermons... and/or must not have cared...
I am not Asian...just a midwesterner from a very small town (<4000) where most everyone looks alike, talks alike, and dresses alike...and white (nominal or real) Christian heterosexual is the narrow norm. Very close to my heart are some young homosexuals struggling in absolute misery among us, one of whom spends a lot of time at my house. His presence in my home and in our lives has really brought me to a place where I had to stop refusing to think about the subject and telling myself it would never have anything to do with my life. I find it's not nearly so simple as whacking people over the head with a few carefully chosen scriptures.
Thank you for what you are doing. It's far away from here, but everything from your part of the USA trickles this direction eventually (though it generally takes years). May open dialogue flow as freely as all the things less lovely are so wont to do.
Blessings.
aw shucks, i missed that confrontation at the end..........
sadly, I wasnt able to attend, had to work 2 hours late on Sat, got out at 8:00. I would have loved to hear Gary speak, i really love that guy!!! I will listen to it on the web site later on.
The conversation was fascinating to me for reasons both expected (to hear firsthand the experiences of a gay Christian) and unexpected (to hear it from the perspective of Asian-American culture, which I know was part of the description of the event, but I think I was so focused on the gay thing that I forgot about that angle). What I learned from both Gary's testimony and from the short film was that the pressure imposed by family and the high value placed on not making people uncomfortable were also factors that added quite a bit to the difficulty these gay Christians experienced in "coming out". That's not to say that white families or anyone else's families or cultures necessarily handle it any better. But it reminded me that sometimes I can be insensitive to that barrier that my Asian-American friends have to overcome - not just regarding the issue of sexual orientation, but regarding any life decision that goes against the expected cultural norm. I think, "What's the big deal, just do what you want and who cares what your parents think of it?" Easier said than done when it's been preached to you for your entire life that you shouldn't rock the boat.
But I am thankful that our largely Asian-American church is willing to rock the boat. I just realize now that I'm gonna need to have more grace with the friends and acquaintances within the church who might be extremely uncomfortable with the boat being rocked, and realize that change takes time, and not adopt an "Either you're with us or you're against us" sort of attitude, as if to say that if they don't like it, they can go find another church. Like Gary said, God is dangerous. It intuitively makes sense that people will recoil from the threat of change sometimes. I'd rather try to help them to not recoil as much, rather than turn the ones who have a tough time with change into my enemies.
Thank you for your leadership in going where no Asian minister has gone before!
Since many Asian-Pacific Islander churches find the topic too difficult to address, many Christian gays sense the implied "Don't ask, don't tell, don't come!" message as you so aptly put.
Because of your God-given gift of leadership and vision, Evergreen can provide a huge service for those smaller API churches that find the issue threatening. In their pews are people wanting to integrate or reconcile their belief systems with their life experiences.
Having the DVD, CDs, and blogs announced to other API churches will help them in their journey when they are ready to do so.
You are to be commended on your efforts. I think when it comes to person's and Bible interpetations you are always going to find so much disagreement, as well as agreement I suppose.
Wow, I am so proud of you all. Most of AsianAm culture is nearly as homophobic as African American culture. I tend to be really leftist in my defense of the issue and I don't believe homosexuality is sinful but I do believe and think that promiscuity is sinful but that's a whole other discussion. This issue is a close one to my heart. I lost my best friend and brother to this so I am a little sensitive about it. He committed suicide because of the lessons he learned in an evangelical setting. Thanks for having the guts to having this conversation, may something more come of it.
p
My husband and I wanted so much to make it Sat night but couldn't...but we look forward to hearing the discussion. We're so very thankful that you put this forum on. Gary Hayashi was our premarital counselor for our 2 yrs of courtship prior to marriage, and he also counseled my husband for awhile before he and I ever met. We still boast that Gary is the most phenomenal, gifted counselor we know, and God has used him TREMENDOUSLY to bring about so much healing and freedom in our lives to be who we are in Christ. Bless you Pastor Ken for your courage to bring the conversation out in the open.
As I become more convinced that the Postmodern/Emergent Churches are slowly drifting away from Biblical Christianity, the subtle differences become more clear, even amongst "evangelical" churches, a broad almost useless term (which is why the signatures of the "Evangelical Manifesto" have attempted to redefine this term recently). Though Postmodern churches focus on "mission" or missiology, I have a categorical disagreement with them. I think the distinction between "conservative" evangelicals (i.e., Biblical inerrantist) and postmodern "evangelicals" (those who are not inerrantists) is an ecclessiological one.
Let me state my case. I believe it is ecclessiological in the first place because "missions" stems from the motivating idea behind the purpose of the Church. It is also not an unpopular notion, too, that Postmodernists (PM) are weak in their Biblical doctrines/theology. So it could really be a simple -but clear- mistake in categories. Whatever the case, I'm not seeking to dispute about our differences of what the purpose of the church is but only point out that this includes "a civil, respectful, and real conversation even in the face of differing convictions" which is possibly mixed in PM ideas of the church, and the historical roots of AA churches that not only included all things "Christian" but also a social/political/communal gathering place in pre-Civil Rights times where open and honest conversation was limited for minorities in the public square. This may be a continuation of that "tradition", if I may. But the blurr comes from the PM influence and the subject matter in this case that leads me to believe that it is rooted more in PM than AA church roots.
PM accepts the idea that truth cannot be known for certain, and thus we are relegated to "communities of truth" or shared views, but one community (or group) cannot claim a superior "truth" upon another community. The best we can do is dialogue and share ideas, and didactic types of communication (ie, preaching) is frowned on. Again, many cutting edge PM churches don't have "preachers" anymore but "facilitators" simply because they have followed the trajectory of thought that whatever the Bible says we can never be so certain about its "objective" truth as to insist on that "one" interpretation of Scripture. Incidentally, what's left is subjectivism as the mark of a communities "truth", that is, personal experience.
Sorry this is a long response. I just wanted to bring up my growing separation from PM/Emergent ideas, and seeing more and more the "big picture" which I don't agree with. God bless you Pastor Ken.
J-Andreas--I'm a little bit confused about how your discussion of emergent churches connects with the homosexuality discussion. I don't know that there's anything "postmodern" about civility, regardless of the subject matter. Or are you suggesting that hosting an open-ended converstion is not the purpose of the church (in your discussion of ecclesiology)? Perhaps we're hearing a continuation of a converstion you had with Pastor Ken in another context?
As a side note, I personally don't think that prominent "emergent" thinkers are all abandoning "objective" interpretation for "subjective" ones. Many are simple pointing out that our notion of "objectivity" is rooted in fallible Enlightenment assumptions. I think many evangelicals' portrayal of postmodernisn fails to do justice to its critique of power and the way it, to quote N.T. Wright, "preaches original sin to arrogant modernism."
I'm glad we had the conversation this Saturday. I don't have a problem with opposing viewpoints. If I did, I'd be yelling at the TV every time I caught a glimpse of Hillary. But one thing bothered me as the civil discourse progressed: The loss of hope.
At one point I felt like a call was given to the church to wake up, realize that homosexuals and strugglers were already in the church, accept that fact, and embrace the people minus the struggle. In other words, it wasn't a matter of letting homosexuals in the church. They're already in. Just let the lifestyle in with it. Quit the bashing. God is love. Start loving like God.
Actually, I go along with that. I go along with most of it. But I feel a loss of hope when we stop talking about sin and our role; grace and God's role; and God's transforming power. I'm a huge sinner. But I don't want the church to start telling me that that's okay. Of course I need acceptance as I am. I also need people to gather around me and tell me that I don't have to stay that way, that there is hope, that God still works...and that sometimes he doesn't. At least not the way I want. Sometimes I'm hit with the reality of providence. God wants me to move forward, but he won't remove all obstacles, no matter how faithful I am. (Or am not.) And yet, in all those things, He works (His way). I could never accept that without the constant but gentle reminder of the church (people).
I remember being near tears one Sunday when a pastor talked about the end of Sampson's life. As he prepared to push the pillars and bring the taunters to their demise, he prayed, "Strengthen me just once more" and "Let me die with the Philistines!" God gave him his wish. But what if, despite all that happened, and Sampson's own neglect, what if Sampson had asked for more? What if he'd asked for the Philistines to be crushed and for eyesight to live and see the victory? Was God ready to grant a prayer that was never prayed? I don't want to go out like that. I don't want to find comfort in a church that accepts my sin and doesn't call me to go higher in God. So even after a thousand prayers have gone up, seemingly in smoke, I don't want to be the one who gave up. I don't want to trade away my hope when I could have so much more.
@ho_omakamaka - Ok, William, now you had ME in tears! Whether or not I was able to make that clear, I completely agree with you. Unconditional love means that all are welcome at Christ's banquet. But Jesus loves us all too much to leave us as we are. It would be like Christ giving us all free lifetime memberships @ 24 hr Fitness, regardless of how pathetically out of shape we might be. But then if Jesus were an amazing trainer, that he would just leave us alone rather than work with us to get into the shape he knows is better for us. It's fantastic to be given that lifetime membership, especially when we're all so undeserving. But it would be tragic if we languished in our unhealthiness when Jesus could truly bring about real transformation.
@alinus - Thanks mucho, alinus! It's terrific to hear from those who've been on the receiving end of Gary's amazing counseling gifts.
I'm really glad you had that conversation, and I really like your 24 Hour Fitness analogy!
=) good stuff pastor ken. our churches should be the safest place to talk about these things, sounds like you're trying to make it that way...
Pastor Ken,
my problem with your last comment is that I wonder if the change you want homosexual strugglers to make is the same others are called to make. I think it's extremely cruel to call Homosexuals and others to repent in the way evangelicals usually mean. I guess my question is what do you mean by repent?
Are straight folks subject to the same pressure to the same degree?
I guess I have a bit of a theological disagreement with you too. We will always languish in our state of sinful brokenness, gay or straight, black or white. What I mean is that the more we are aware of how broken we really are we will always be needy for the blood of Jesus. We do become strong enough to trust and even walk on our own as we follow Jesus but we are just as broken as the day we are saved. Our position in Jesus changes but I don't really notice how I stop sinning without the Holy Spirit.
Honestly I think folks need to leave the type of change to God and God alone. I think one has to be convicted by the holy spirit to change one's sexual practices and even their identity but because of all the pain in the conservative church I would say that should really leave it alone because unless they have gone through their own sexual healing they do not have the integrity to tell anyone else how to live their lives.
p
(Thanks Pastor K for letting me share my thoughts. Yes, you are right, other churches would not permit me to have dissenting views.)
Hi Ken--Allow me to preface these comments with a heartfelt thanks for hosting this fascinating conversation last Saturday. As a regular at EBCLA for 18 years who has supported you in nearly every endeavor, both pre- and post-hive, I appreciate that you've taken a deliberate step out of your personal comfort zone by inviting speakers whose viewpoints are known to differ from yours. Although I was unable to attend the live event because of prior commitments, I did listen to the entire 2+ hour podcast and was especially moved by the depth and honesty of Gary's story, which far surpassed the scope of his sharing in '94. (Remember those "PG-13 notices" that were inserted into the programs prior to his messages?) Likewise, I rejoiced with Marian as she stood in compassionate solidarity with Gary. The bond between these two Christ-followers--of different genders and orientations, yet with common interests, gifts, and talents--was a splendid example of the unity amidst diversity that can help break the dividing walls of hostility in our churches today.
IMHO, R is the quintessential embodiment of Galatians 5:22-23--a man who clearly loves God and consistently bears every good fruit named in that passage. Both G and R have been moved by Jeff's blog posts; together they represent the hope of a redemptive gay community that dispels stereotypes and is replete with real-life examples of healthy, reconciled relationships. Perhaps their stories are atypical, but they are the basis on which my impressions of the LGBT community are formed. In these friends, I see promise, not promiscuity; humility, not hedonism; sacrificial love, not self-absorption.
As you may have surmised, my faith journey has led me to starkly different conclusions surrounding the issue of homosexuality. So in the interest of full disclosure: I am of the welcoming AND affirming persuasion, proudly supportive of my LGBT brothers and sisters who elect to pursue monogamous and committed relationships (or celibacy, for that matter). Like Marian and Gary, I do not believe one's sexual orientation can be chosen or changed at will, or that certain same-sex activities are intrinsically sinful. At the same time, I think all of us would agree that promiscuity of any stripe falls outside the realm of acceptable Christian practice. Surprisingly, it appears that no one from the liberal side of the spectrum in our church has yet weighed in on your blog posts, and I don't purport to speak for any or all of these folks. But we may constitute a sizable minority, and my hope is that by taking the lead, others will consider following suit.
Admittedly, my views have been shaped by some combination of intuition, empirical evidence, scriptural study, redemptive hermeneutics, a penchant for social justice...but most importantly, a passionate desire to model Jesus in the lives of two former students whom I now consider my closest and most trusted friends. I've already shared about one of these individuals in a comment to your entry dated 5/5/06. G was the first person ever to come out to me (back in '05); today he is a first-year medical student at Michigan State. His former roommate, R, is a UCSF pharmacy student whom I count among my spiritual heroes...right up there with Jimmy Carter, Tony Campolo, Brian McLaren, Henri Nouwen, Jeff Lam, and you.
This leads me to wonder: what would draw marginalized seekers and followers, such as G and R, to a church like EBCLA? What might prompt them to check out, invest in, and eventually become full-fledged members of this beloved community? I would posit that it has much to do with our vision of pursuing reconciliation, shalom, justice, mercy, compassion, hospitality, and God's heart for the world. But before they can take that step of faith, they must also be assured that our church is indeed a safe place--where we seek to understand before attempting to be understood; where we walk alongside our fellow LGBT sojourners, not steer them toward the nearest Exodus International chapter. I'm very thankful you have led us in the direction of more open communication, even as we are still a work in progress.
Many of us cringe upon hearing the "welcoming, but not affirming" platitude, the "hate the sin, love the sinner" mantra, the mindless references to an as-yet-undefined "homosexual lifestyle." These terms have been used by the majority to demonize and divide those in the minority--sometimes in the name of "love," but far too often with devastating consequences. If the church is truly to become a welcoming, affirming, and safe place for all, then we must shed the language of exclusion and readily admit our need for forgiveness and reconciliation with the "other." In so doing, let us seek to hold our LGBT brothers and sisters in higher regard than ourselves. And let us aspire to be, in the words of Lesslie Newbigin, a "hermeneutic of the gospel"--where those who read the church are reading the very heart of God.
are you willing to perform same-sex marriages now that they're legal in california? hehe http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_9269719?nclick_check=1
@Pashe - Pashe, thanks again for your challenges and comments. I am in no way singling out those who have SSA as the ONLY ones who should remain open to transformation and healing from God. All along, I've maintained that the approach I'm taking is that ALL of us are dealing with different aspects of a fallen, broken human sexuality. I would even venture to suggest that FEW of us (None?) every experience complete and total transformation/healing in this regard, but the Body of Christ should be that place that understands this intimately and supports each of us as we struggle with the inner contradictions of our respective lives.
Even as I say and post my convictions on this subject, I am clearly still a work in progress myself and also on this issue. In the meantime, I am trying to state positions that are not fueled by fear or revulsion and that will do minimal harm to others if I am wrong (wholly or in part) and hopefully steer the heated debate in the direction of a Christ-centered conversation.
And, no, j_andres2, this is not me trying to take a PoMo/emergent approach to this subject. Rather, it is simply (!) my trying to model convicted civility. I'm glad you appreciate the atmosphere that allows for different points of view. Suggestion: you're obviously quite well-read and sophisticated in your theological and sociological analysis. But I think you need at times to step back from all that and just breathe. Your intensity, I'm guessing, sometimes is intimidating and perhaps makes it hard for others to breathe around you. Remember to breathe and that other people can't be around those who suffocate them. That's the environment we're trying to create that helps you to know that you can express yourself freely. Thanks for extending God's blessing to me; I extend that same blessing to you, too!
@ReplacementSK - As far as I can recall, j_andres2 comments are not a continuation of any conversation that we've had or have been having. I did read his reply to you but, like you, much of what he laid out seemed like a non sequitor to what I'm talking about. You can read the 2nd half of my reply to Pashe to see my reply to j_andres2. I appreciate that you apparently grasp what's going on here. thanks.
@davelai - Dave, I'm not sure if I understand your "he he" at the end of your question. It implies that my willingness to talk to those with a more accepting view of LGBT persons and related issues somehow 'traps' me into having to perform same sex ceremonies. First, I don't think that this is a laughable matter to those who feel unfairly discriminated against. If this was about racial bigotry or misogyny, I hope and doubt that you would feel the freedom to "laugh" about it, right?
I believe that all Americans deserve equal protection under the law, so I would rather that the right to marry not be controlled by any religious institution. That's been true for straight people. They don't have to come to any church if they want to get married. They can have an Elvis impersonator perform their wedding in a tawdry Vegas wedding mill (which certainly cheapens what I do, doesn't it?). So long as I am never compelled to perform ANY wedding that I cannot, as a Christian pastor, perform with a clear conscience, I'm okay.